21 ms·

> when the group is based on literally killing of Jews (Not even just in Israel). This is literally bullshit.

by Udik 5y ago

TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant Calling for the destruction of Israel isn't calling to kill the Jews? Calling for Jihad against the Jews and quoting Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews isn't an incitement for genocide? This reads just like mein kampf, if this was written by a white person you would call him a nazi.
- Udik 5y ago
  I don't think there is any chance for me to convince you, but the Hamas covenant is an old document, written by religious fundamentalists who also were inflamed by decades of conflict on their homeland and holy land (and whatever you think of it, you can't deny that the people who are losing the war and the land must feel wronged). So I cut them some slack and don't take the religious raving seriously. As the Wikipedia page you linked explains, Hamas itself has moved on and is far from monolithic: various of its leaders have multiple times declared in the past 15 years that they've moved away from that original covenant. The second sentence of the Wikipedia entry literally states that Hamas has a new charter since 2017. So why would you fixate on a piece of text written 33 years ago by angered fundamentalists, that has also been multiple times rejected by the leaders of the same movement and that is now superseded by a more recent one? If you want to hate someone, it's easy to cling to a single piece of damning, black-and-white evidence, however outdated and contested. Don't you think you should consider more elements, at least to give your views some balance? You can check the new charter here: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
  - TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
    > single piece It's their actions not just this document. It's the calling of Jihad that's not changed. Calling for the destruction of Israel that has not changed. If they wanted to "change", their action would reflect that, what you linked is just a lipstick on a pig to appeal to the westerns media and mind set to look more tolerant but they truly aren't. If ISIS suddenly had a more "tolerant" charter and leadership would you change their mind about them?
    - Udik 5y ago
      Hamas is a movement with a religious fundamentalist basis, I don't think that "tolerance" is what you should expect from them. But this is not a beauty contest. Just use Occam's razor: they call to "Jihad" (struggle) because foreigners have come and displaced them from their homeland (well beyond what the international community- including the western nations- considers legal). It is just preposterous to attribute racial or religious hatred to those who fight back an invasion of their homeland. If China came and invaded your land, would you fight back because you are an anti-Asian racist? And after all, wouldn't being invaded and oppressed by China make you a bit into a racist, at least on the long run and while the struggle stands?
      - TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
        Everyone doesn't like a specific group doesn't matter what the basis is or reason, but that wasn't the point of the argument, that point was about dehumanization. You want to struggle against oppressors, ok , I get that but when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes, when you dig tunnels to pop up in the Kibbutz dining room, when you blow incendiary balloons that destroy forests and nature reserves killing countless wild life you are not human, you are an evil daemon that should be eradicated just as was done with nazi Germany and ISIS.
        Udik 5y ago
        > when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group We already established that they don't say that. > when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes... If your country had been invaded and utterly militarily overwhelmed by another country, now intent on building cities and installing their population on your former land, what would you do to free it, where would you stop and just throw your arms up and say "well, I can't do anything"? In a situation like that, there will always be someone who is willing to use any means to make the occupation and the oppression as costly as possible for the oppressor. It's not racial hatred, it's that when you cannot hit the army you'll hit whatever you can. When Israel will have given back all the territory that has illegally appropriated (illegally according to the western nations, not some backwards middle Eastern dictatorship) then it will be in a position to denounce any continuing terrorism from Hamas. Before that, it's just complaining because its victims fight back.

> when the group is based on literally killing of Jews (Not even just in Israel). This is literally bullshit.

by Udik 5y ago

> when the group is based on literally killing of Jews (Not even just in Israel). This is literally bullshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant Calling for the destruction of Israel isn't calling to kill the Jews? Calling for Jihad against the Jews and quoting Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews isn't an incitement for genocide? This reads just like mein kampf, if this was written by a white person you would call him a nazi.

Udik 5y ago
I don't think there is any chance for me to convince you, but the Hamas covenant is an old document, written by religious fundamentalists who also were inflamed by decades of conflict on their homeland and holy land (and whatever you think of it, you can't deny that the people who are losing the war and the land must feel wronged). So I cut them some slack and don't take the religious raving seriously. As the Wikipedia page you linked explains, Hamas itself has moved on and is far from monolithic: various of its leaders have multiple times declared in the past 15 years that they've moved away from that original covenant. The second sentence of the Wikipedia entry literally states that Hamas has a new charter since 2017. So why would you fixate on a piece of text written 33 years ago by angered fundamentalists, that has also been multiple times rejected by the leaders of the same movement and that is now superseded by a more recent one? If you want to hate someone, it's easy to cling to a single piece of damning, black-and-white evidence, however outdated and contested. Don't you think you should consider more elements, at least to give your views some balance? You can check the new charter here: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
- TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
  > single piece It's their actions not just this document. It's the calling of Jihad that's not changed. Calling for the destruction of Israel that has not changed. If they wanted to "change", their action would reflect that, what you linked is just a lipstick on a pig to appeal to the westerns media and mind set to look more tolerant but they truly aren't. If ISIS suddenly had a more "tolerant" charter and leadership would you change their mind about them?
  - Udik 5y ago
    Hamas is a movement with a religious fundamentalist basis, I don't think that "tolerance" is what you should expect from them. But this is not a beauty contest. Just use Occam's razor: they call to "Jihad" (struggle) because foreigners have come and displaced them from their homeland (well beyond what the international community- including the western nations- considers legal). It is just preposterous to attribute racial or religious hatred to those who fight back an invasion of their homeland. If China came and invaded your land, would you fight back because you are an anti-Asian racist? And after all, wouldn't being invaded and oppressed by China make you a bit into a racist, at least on the long run and while the struggle stands?
    - TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
      Everyone doesn't like a specific group doesn't matter what the basis is or reason, but that wasn't the point of the argument, that point was about dehumanization. You want to struggle against oppressors, ok , I get that but when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes, when you dig tunnels to pop up in the Kibbutz dining room, when you blow incendiary balloons that destroy forests and nature reserves killing countless wild life you are not human, you are an evil daemon that should be eradicated just as was done with nazi Germany and ISIS.
      - Udik 5y ago
        > when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group We already established that they don't say that. > when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes... If your country had been invaded and utterly militarily overwhelmed by another country, now intent on building cities and installing their population on your former land, what would you do to free it, where would you stop and just throw your arms up and say "well, I can't do anything"? In a situation like that, there will always be someone who is willing to use any means to make the occupation and the oppression as costly as possible for the oppressor. It's not racial hatred, it's that when you cannot hit the army you'll hit whatever you can. When Israel will have given back all the territory that has illegally appropriated (illegally according to the western nations, not some backwards middle Eastern dictatorship) then it will be in a position to denounce any continuing terrorism from Hamas. Before that, it's just complaining because its victims fight back.