8 ms·

> I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing This is quite a straw man, not wanting to decriminalize all dru

by cactus2093 5y ago

> I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing This is quite a straw man, not wanting to decriminalize all drugs is not the same as thinking the War on Drugs is a good thing. (And it's not like there is one particular policy that on its own constitutes the "War on Drugs", so this is a very vague statement anyway). It's also interesting to me that in many other arguments, the liberal/progressive side likes to (rightly) highlight other countries that have done a better job and present an example to follow. Not so with drug laws, because there are no such clear examples of success. There are countries with much less of a drug problem than the US which have much harsher drug penalties (like Japan and Singapore). Then there is the most popular example on the other extreme, Portugal, where it is not at all clear whether their decriminalization policy worked or not [0]. US society clearly seems to be moving in the direction of legalizing less harmful substances like weed and relaxing criminal penalties for small scale possession, which I believe are good things. But I don't see any reason to believe that decriminalizing everything would make things better. At the local level, US cities where opiates are effectively decriminalized like SF have horrible outcomes when it comes to drug abuse and overdoses. [0] https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/ondcp/ondcp-fact-sheets/drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-challenges-and-limitations https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/ondcp/ondcp-fact-sheets...

thatswrong0 5y ago
Sending those pesky addicts to jail will certainly fix the issue.
- username90 5y ago
  That is a strawman. Most countries keeps drugs illegal without sending addicts to jail. There is no reason you have to go with one or the other.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    >Most countries keeps drugs illegal without sending addicts to jail. This has to be a joke, right? Which countries?
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      The countries built of straw
    - eitland 5y ago
      Norway doesn't sendt addicts to jail for addiction as far as I know. (But will sometimes send addicts to jail for dealing drugs or for stealing to finance their drug use.)
      - piva00 5y ago
        Norway has passed legislation to decriminalise drugs in small quantities for usage [1]. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/norway-to-decriminalize-personal-drug-use-in-historic-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/norway-to...
        skinkestek 5y ago
        Originally there was a much better proposal by Høgre ( literally "Right", probably best translated as "Conservatives") but it was shot down by Arbeiderpartiet ("Worker's Party" / "Labour" depending on how literally you want to translate it.) If anyone find it more than a bit ironic then we agree.
pmoriarty 5y ago
"At the local level, US cities where opiates are effectively decriminalized like SF have horrible outcomes when it comes to drug abuse and overdoses." The obvious question to ask is if the rampant drug abuse and overdoses in SF is due to decriminalization or something else? And has decriminalization made the situation better or worse? I would argue that to prevent unintentional overdoses the best thing to do (other than improve people's lives so they don't feel a need for substances that could be harming them) is to legalize these drugs, make them pure, clearly label them, and educate people on how much of a dose in what circumstances would be an overdose. That alone would greatly reduce the harm, and be much more effective than making/keeping these drugs illegal and forcing their users to play the lottery with a mystery drug of unknown purity and dosage every time they snort or inject. That's not to mention the harm of being shot or assaulted by the police during an arrest for drug use, your life being ruined by a felony conviction, possibly getting raped, tortured or murdered in prison, being kept out of the legal economy afterward you get out (if you get out) because of a felony conviction, etc..
specialist 5y ago
> But I don't see any reason to believe that decriminalizing everything would make things better. The stated intent of decriminalization, redirecting resources from enforcement to treatment, switching to a public health strategy, is harm reduction. We still don't know what will reduce use and abuse. Whatever the merits of the War on Drugs, it manifestly failed to reduce either.
- cactus2093 5y ago
  That's also a hard sell right now based on the catastrophic failure of US public health policies during the pandemic. Public health systems have shown they can do a pretty good job given a miracle vaccine to work with. Short of that, not so much. And unfortunately we don't yet have a shot that cures drug abuse. A little more specifically, I don't think the lack of availability of rehab programs is what is the problem here, and that's about all public health could offer.
  - specialist 5y ago
    What would you do?
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Well currently people are denied treatment and resources altogether if they have an addiction. That is a massive problem
    - cactus2093 5y ago
      What do you mean? There are free treatment resources available for homeless/poor drug addicts to get clean. But many people are never going to make the choice to do so.
      - specialist 5y ago
        Defeatism is so exhausting. Every one already knows that every thing sucks. Trying is better than not trying. Unless you have some better ideas. Please tell.
smsm42 5y ago
TBH, SF has so many reasons for "horrible outcomes" that I don't think putting it on the opiates' supposed legality is fair. I mean, that's the place where it's legal to rob Walgreens, I don't think opiates did that.
- cactus2093 5y ago
  Why wouldn’t those things be related? I’m actually not sure how anyone knows this for sure, I haven’t seen the evidence first hand. But according to our board of supervisors 80% of the Walgreens robberies are tied to organized crime. The gangs get money and power from selling drugs that are decriminalized, and then find new ways to make more money like robbing stores. Also, the same line of thinking that doesn’t think you should penalize the addict for doing something wrong like taking drugs in the first place, is easily extended to also saying we that robbing a store is a minor offense and we shouldn’t penalize anybody for that either.
  - smsm42 5y ago
    Well, on some level they are related, as you noted, by the ideological background that drives the belief system of the people managing SF. But, if we range their decisions by the amount of harm they are doing to the city, I don't think not jailing addicts would come on top. There were other places, where this strategy worked successfully - when combined with suitable addiction management programs and proper law enforcement in other areas. SF management, obviously, is unwilling to do that, but I would blame the whole complex of delusionary beliefs they hold rather than specific decriminalization decision.

thatswrong0 5y ago

Sending those pesky addicts to jail will certainly fix the issue.

username90 5y ago
That is a strawman. Most countries keeps drugs illegal without sending addicts to jail. There is no reason you have to go with one or the other.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  >Most countries keeps drugs illegal without sending addicts to jail. This has to be a joke, right? Which countries?
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    The countries built of straw
  - eitland 5y ago
    Norway doesn't sendt addicts to jail for addiction as far as I know. (But will sometimes send addicts to jail for dealing drugs or for stealing to finance their drug use.)
    - piva00 5y ago
      Norway has passed legislation to decriminalise drugs in small quantities for usage [1]. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/norway-to-decriminalize-personal-drug-use-in-historic-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/norway-to...
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        Originally there was a much better proposal by Høgre ( literally "Right", probably best translated as "Conservatives") but it was shot down by Arbeiderpartiet ("Worker's Party" / "Labour" depending on how literally you want to translate it.) If anyone find it more than a bit ironic then we agree.

pmoriarty 5y ago

"At the local level, US cities where opiates are effectively decriminalized like SF have horrible outcomes when it comes to drug abuse and overdoses." The obvious question to ask is if the rampant drug abuse and overdoses in SF is due to decriminalization or something else? And has decriminalization made the situation better or worse? I would argue that to prevent unintentional overdoses the best thing to do (other than improve people's lives so they don't feel a need for substances that could be harming them) is to legalize these drugs, make them pure, clearly label them, and educate people on how much of a dose in what circumstances would be an overdose. That alone would greatly reduce the harm, and be much more effective than making/keeping these drugs illegal and forcing their users to play the lottery with a mystery drug of unknown purity and dosage every time they snort or inject. That's not to mention the harm of being shot or assaulted by the police during an arrest for drug use, your life being ruined by a felony conviction, possibly getting raped, tortured or murdered in prison, being kept out of the legal economy afterward you get out (if you get out) because of a felony conviction, etc..

specialist 5y ago

> But I don't see any reason to believe that decriminalizing everything would make things better. The stated intent of decriminalization, redirecting resources from enforcement to treatment, switching to a public health strategy, is harm reduction. We still don't know what will reduce use and abuse. Whatever the merits of the War on Drugs, it manifestly failed to reduce either.

cactus2093 5y ago
That's also a hard sell right now based on the catastrophic failure of US public health policies during the pandemic. Public health systems have shown they can do a pretty good job given a miracle vaccine to work with. Short of that, not so much. And unfortunately we don't yet have a shot that cures drug abuse. A little more specifically, I don't think the lack of availability of rehab programs is what is the problem here, and that's about all public health could offer.
- specialist 5y ago
  What would you do?
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Well currently people are denied treatment and resources altogether if they have an addiction. That is a massive problem
  - cactus2093 5y ago
    What do you mean? There are free treatment resources available for homeless/poor drug addicts to get clean. But many people are never going to make the choice to do so.
    - specialist 5y ago
      Defeatism is so exhausting. Every one already knows that every thing sucks. Trying is better than not trying. Unless you have some better ideas. Please tell.

smsm42 5y ago

TBH, SF has so many reasons for "horrible outcomes" that I don't think putting it on the opiates' supposed legality is fair. I mean, that's the place where it's legal to rob Walgreens, I don't think opiates did that.

cactus2093 5y ago
Why wouldn’t those things be related? I’m actually not sure how anyone knows this for sure, I haven’t seen the evidence first hand. But according to our board of supervisors 80% of the Walgreens robberies are tied to organized crime. The gangs get money and power from selling drugs that are decriminalized, and then find new ways to make more money like robbing stores. Also, the same line of thinking that doesn’t think you should penalize the addict for doing something wrong like taking drugs in the first place, is easily extended to also saying we that robbing a store is a minor offense and we shouldn’t penalize anybody for that either.
- smsm42 5y ago
  Well, on some level they are related, as you noted, by the ideological background that drives the belief system of the people managing SF. But, if we range their decisions by the amount of harm they are doing to the city, I don't think not jailing addicts would come on top. There were other places, where this strategy worked successfully - when combined with suitable addiction management programs and proper law enforcement in other areas. SF management, obviously, is unwilling to do that, but I would blame the whole complex of delusionary beliefs they hold rather than specific decriminalization decision.