8 ms·

In 1850, Ignaz Semmelweis saved lives with three words: wash your hands (2015)

105 points by Hooke 5y ago

tdeck 5y ago
Great but of history, but the title is just... dumbed down. I'm pretty sure Semmelweis didn't speak English and never once said those three words.
- Stratoscope 5y ago
  It's an English language article written for an English speaking audience. I don't think using a translation of what he actually said is dumbing it down, it just makes it more accessible for readers of English.
  - WaitWaitWha 5y ago
    Dr. Semmelweis Ignác Fülöp was Hungarian of German descent. It would have been "mossa kezét" (most likely using the formal third-person). Since he was not churlish, he would have approached such statements as a request, not an order.
    - permo-w 5y ago
      He worked in Austria and published his work in German, so it seems highly unlikely he would have said it in Hungarian. Also, contrary to your claims about churlishness, the article states multiple times that he was a rather rude man
hi41 5y ago
Such an amazing work by Dr. Semmelweis! These days we are making medical discoveries at a fast pace. My gut feeling is that it made possible because of FOSS software. If in the days of Dr. Semmelweis, if microscope lens making technology was more freely available then more fascinating medical discoveries could have been made. A big shout out to FOSS contributors!
- permo-w 5y ago
  been thinking about open-source software a lot recently?
Stratoscope 5y ago
There is a rather chilling quote related to this that has stuck in my mind. Many doctors at the time were opposed to hand washing, and one famously summed it up this way: "Doctors are gentlemen and a gentleman's hands are clean." A search for this phrase finds many related articles: https://www.google.com/search?q=doctors+are+gentlemen+and+a+gentleman%27s+hands+are+clean https://www.google.com/search?q=doctors+are+gentlemen+and+a+...
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Yes, and doctors, scientists and even WHO said last year, that masks are useless for healthy people, and that people who buy and wear them are fearmongering paranoics. ...until one random saturday (in my country atleast), when they made them mandatory (along with gloves) to be able to enter a store, where you could actually buy them, but couldn't, because they were sold out in the first five minutes in the morning.
  - Stratoscope 5y ago
    My recollection is somewhat different. Here in the US, the advice was not that masks were useless, but that they were in such short supply (especially N95 masks) that it was best to reserve them for medical professionals who were at the greatest risk. A cottage industry developed quickly of people making masks at home and giving/selling to their neighbors. I remember buying several from a high school graduate in the neighborhood, very early in the pandemic.
    - tjr 5y ago
      Here's one example leaning more toward the other way (from Canada [edit: from March 2020]): https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/coronavirus-why-masks-dont-work https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/coronavirus-why-...
      - Retric 5y ago
        Even that was fairly pro mask: “When are they useful? Studies done during the SARS epidemic of 2003 found that for medical professionals, wearing any type of mask compared with none can reduce chances of getting sick by about 80 per cent. The N95 mask, which gives better facial coverage and guards against smaller droplets, appears to be somewhat more effective than standard surgical masks. But medical professionals follow strict guidelines in taking masks on and off, discard them after each use, and use additional safeguards like eye protection and gowns to shield themselves. They can help to prevent sick individuals from transmitting the virus by blocking droplets.” The real story wasn’t masks it was hand washing. Early on it was assumed surface contact would be a major vector, but that turned out not to be the case. “Don’t think that masks are the miracle solution,” he said. “They are useful for those who are sick to not contaminate others. It’s all about hygiene of the hands.”
jmspring 5y ago
I'm not looking forward to the X-resistant bugs that come out of all the covid focus on sanitizer/etc. Soap and water, once we had a handle best bet. Not easy for retail, but helps.
- BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
  My understanding is that once the antibacterial products stop getting used the resistance to them is no longer selected for. But most hand soap is only antibacterial insomuch as the soap chemically binds to them and the water washes it away. Hopefully we go back to letting things be and not requiring sterile public spaces.
  - permo-w 5y ago
    this was one of the major causes of the polio epidemic. after the discovery of germs, parents stopped letting their babies get exposed to dirt and germs when they were young and still had their placental super immune system. This meant they didn’t develop resistance to Polio and other diseases, and were much more susceptible to it at an older age
dukeofdoom 5y ago
The power of testing an idea, and finding out if it worked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence
permo-w 5y ago
This article ponders why Semmelweis went insane. While it’s possible, likely perhaps, that medical issues were involved (injecting yourself with Syphilis is rarely a good idea), how would it feel to watch women, new mothers die every day before your eyes, while you know the solution, but the people around you refuse to believe you, and refuse to take action, basically out of pure pride and arrogance. Imagine watching mother after mother die in front of you. Imagine knowing the solution. Imagine the people around you ignoring it. Surely that would be enough to drive any normal man insane, or to alcoholism, or some other escape from reality
- mro_name 5y ago
  I wonder who are today's Semmelweis. Privacy advocats? Paper lobbyists? Climate activits? And how to no go insane and drown in Cassandra syndrome?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - smarx007 5y ago
    Constant Anxiety Won't Save the World: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/constant-anxiety-wont-save-the-world/537132/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/constant-...
    - mro_name 5y ago
      Indeed. Last year I resolved to only get upset about things I can change. The challenge now is to tell the difference.
  - heisenbit 5y ago
    To a degree the early people in the western countries who called for wearing masks. Ironically they were laughed at due to a cargo cult based on Semmelweis‘s insights.
    - 5y ago
dang 5y ago
Some past relevant threads: The history of economic growth is a tale of cleanliness - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24021044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24021044 - Aug 2020 (47 comments) A doctor who championed hand-washing and briefly saved lives (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802761 - July 2020 (88 comments) Sanitation conquered disease long before vaccines or antibiotics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22173638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22173638 - Jan 2020 (71 comments) The Doctor Who Championed Hand-Washing and Briefly Saved Lives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8897387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8897387 - Jan 2015 (41 comments) Look at yourself objectively - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828 - Aug 2012 (77 comments)
ncmncm 5y ago
Amazingly, his advice is to this day only fitfully obeyed in possibly a majority of American hospitals. Compliance with hand-washing rules has been very hard to enforce. But nitrile gloves are often used, instead, in many places, which takes much of the pressure off.
ArcturianDeath 5y ago
OMG, if he wasnt born, no one could have discovered that
ridiculous_leke 5y ago
Aaron Shwartz also covered it here: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis He also mentions why the doctors didn't accept his findings. They simple weren't willing to accept their roles in the death of mothers.
malthaus 5y ago
Naive question: How likely is it that the constant use of hand sanitizers due to the pandemic (which might stay on as a habit) has negative side effects for the population as whole or individuals, e.g. killing "good bacteria", creating resistances, weakening the immune system?
- nobodyknowsyoda 5y ago
  Probably not good for individuals. I am a germophobe and my immune system is a lot weaker than my friends who share drinks, eat stuff off the floor, eat street food, kiss random strangers etc[0] Probably great for the population and likely to increase Earth’s carrying capacity of humans, as is the case with most technological progress (hand washing, plumbing, agricultural techniques increasing food production per hectare, micronutrient fortification). We become dependent on these things and as long as they stick around as reliable infrastructure then we are good It is important to keep in mind, however, that exposing oneself to pathogens from other humans is distinct from exposing oneself to various neutral microorganisms from the environment that help diversify your micro biome and generally make your immune system stronger. “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” does not apply to oneself and Ebola or HIV or even malaria in a very practical sense. Perhaps most relatable to Hacker News folks is that each infection in one’s body offers a nonzero chance of lowering one’s IQ. That should suffice as reason to avoid disease Edit: [0] I get sick a lot more easily than they do, and uh, it took me 9 months to recover from Covid (long Covid)
tdrgabi 5y ago
I don't know if it's ok to link to reddit from here, but here's a good explanation why Semmelweis ideas were not accepted from the beginning: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/2bnsjx/ignaz_semmelweis_the_tesla_of_medicine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/2bnsjx/ignaz_se... tldr: it was a very radical idea and he was a difficult, unliked man. I read that as "kind of a jerk", but that's my interpretation. We might react the same way if the person you dislike for being a smartass comes with an idea that there are invisible tiny things killing people. I think there's a lesson here, it's not enough to be right. You need to sell your ideas well. Especially if you're selling to a group that already dislike you due to previous interactions.
- carlmr 5y ago
  >You need to sell your ideas well. Especially if you're selling to a group that already dislike you due to previous interactions. Alternatively, be nice to people, making it easier for them to like your ideas.
  - I_complete_me 5y ago
    It seems logical to me that good ideas could be available to intolerable people.
  - dsego 5y ago
    This is like the first few chapters of "How to Win Friends & Influence People". Mostly never criticize people, it just makes them want to save face.
    - carlmr 5y ago
      I think it says to criticize in private and laud in public. We are all emotional beings, so I think it's good advice.
      - dsego 5y ago
        Not just emotional. My biggest takeaway is that everyone wants to feel important, that they matter. And it's true whether you are a president or a petty criminal. It's a very strong emotion.
AbuAssar 5y ago
Muslims are ordered to wash their hands (and feet) 5 times daily AT LEAST! Since ~570 AD
wombatmobile 5y ago
AUG. 28, 2013 Study: Doctors don't wash hands properly 40% of the time https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/08/28/Study-Doctors-dont-wash-hands-properly-40-of-the-time/91061377740214/ https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/08/28/Study-Doctors-don...
wombatmobile 5y ago
Why don't doctors wash their hands? A correlational study of thinking styles and hand hygiene https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0196655308000655 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01966...
napier 5y ago
Ironically, today it’s hand washing experts contributing to morbidity and loss of life by stonewalling airborne transmission precautions: masks that actually filter small particles and fit seal, building ventilation upgrades, and switching the the school year to outdoor classes during the summer. All blocked by hand washing experts whose groupthink egos refuse to accept basic laws of physics and evidence based policy that countries like Japan have auctioned since the very beginning of the pandemic.
- hyperbovine 5y ago
  Sources please.
credit_guy 5y ago
The same 3 words killed hundreds of thousands of people in 2020: Wash your hands. Don't wear a mask.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  Most of the masks used outside hospitals are only 5% effective. Non-N95 masks simply don't work. What you said illustrates: - how most people actually care about theater and virtue signalling, not science. - how people are quick to shame other people with no evidence.
Arete314159 5y ago
Last spring, a bunch of aerosol experts like K. Prather were saying, "hey guys, Covid is airborne." Crickets from the "real" experts on Covid. It took hundreds of thousands of deaths for people to sort of get that it's airborne, and even now the ramifications of that -- for example, that all healthcare workers should wear N95's instead of surgical masks -- have not really been understood and accepted. It's the same thing all over again.

105 points by Hooke 5y ago

Great but of history, but the title is just... dumbed down. I'm pretty sure Semmelweis didn't speak English and never once said those three words.

Stratoscope 5y ago
It's an English language article written for an English speaking audience. I don't think using a translation of what he actually said is dumbing it down, it just makes it more accessible for readers of English.
- WaitWaitWha 5y ago
  Dr. Semmelweis Ignác Fülöp was Hungarian of German descent. It would have been "mossa kezét" (most likely using the formal third-person). Since he was not churlish, he would have approached such statements as a request, not an order.
  - permo-w 5y ago
    He worked in Austria and published his work in German, so it seems highly unlikely he would have said it in Hungarian. Also, contrary to your claims about churlishness, the article states multiple times that he was a rather rude man

hi41 5y ago

Such an amazing work by Dr. Semmelweis! These days we are making medical discoveries at a fast pace. My gut feeling is that it made possible because of FOSS software. If in the days of Dr. Semmelweis, if microscope lens making technology was more freely available then more fascinating medical discoveries could have been made. A big shout out to FOSS contributors!

permo-w 5y ago
been thinking about open-source software a lot recently?

Stratoscope 5y ago

There is a rather chilling quote related to this that has stuck in my mind. Many doctors at the time were opposed to hand washing, and one famously summed it up this way: "Doctors are gentlemen and a gentleman's hands are clean." A search for this phrase finds many related articles: https://www.google.com/search?q=doctors+are+gentlemen+and+a+gentleman%27s+hands+are+clean https://www.google.com/search?q=doctors+are+gentlemen+and+a+...

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Yes, and doctors, scientists and even WHO said last year, that masks are useless for healthy people, and that people who buy and wear them are fearmongering paranoics. ...until one random saturday (in my country atleast), when they made them mandatory (along with gloves) to be able to enter a store, where you could actually buy them, but couldn't, because they were sold out in the first five minutes in the morning.
- Stratoscope 5y ago
  My recollection is somewhat different. Here in the US, the advice was not that masks were useless, but that they were in such short supply (especially N95 masks) that it was best to reserve them for medical professionals who were at the greatest risk. A cottage industry developed quickly of people making masks at home and giving/selling to their neighbors. I remember buying several from a high school graduate in the neighborhood, very early in the pandemic.
  - tjr 5y ago
    Here's one example leaning more toward the other way (from Canada [edit: from March 2020]): https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/coronavirus-why-masks-dont-work https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/coronavirus-why-...
    - Retric 5y ago
      Even that was fairly pro mask: “When are they useful? Studies done during the SARS epidemic of 2003 found that for medical professionals, wearing any type of mask compared with none can reduce chances of getting sick by about 80 per cent. The N95 mask, which gives better facial coverage and guards against smaller droplets, appears to be somewhat more effective than standard surgical masks. But medical professionals follow strict guidelines in taking masks on and off, discard them after each use, and use additional safeguards like eye protection and gowns to shield themselves. They can help to prevent sick individuals from transmitting the virus by blocking droplets.” The real story wasn’t masks it was hand washing. Early on it was assumed surface contact would be a major vector, but that turned out not to be the case. “Don’t think that masks are the miracle solution,” he said. “They are useful for those who are sick to not contaminate others. It’s all about hygiene of the hands.”

jmspring 5y ago

I'm not looking forward to the X-resistant bugs that come out of all the covid focus on sanitizer/etc. Soap and water, once we had a handle best bet. Not easy for retail, but helps.

BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
My understanding is that once the antibacterial products stop getting used the resistance to them is no longer selected for. But most hand soap is only antibacterial insomuch as the soap chemically binds to them and the water washes it away. Hopefully we go back to letting things be and not requiring sterile public spaces.
- permo-w 5y ago
  this was one of the major causes of the polio epidemic. after the discovery of germs, parents stopped letting their babies get exposed to dirt and germs when they were young and still had their placental super immune system. This meant they didn’t develop resistance to Polio and other diseases, and were much more susceptible to it at an older age

dukeofdoom 5y ago

The power of testing an idea, and finding out if it worked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence

permo-w 5y ago

This article ponders why Semmelweis went insane. While it’s possible, likely perhaps, that medical issues were involved (injecting yourself with Syphilis is rarely a good idea), how would it feel to watch women, new mothers die every day before your eyes, while you know the solution, but the people around you refuse to believe you, and refuse to take action, basically out of pure pride and arrogance. Imagine watching mother after mother die in front of you. Imagine knowing the solution. Imagine the people around you ignoring it. Surely that would be enough to drive any normal man insane, or to alcoholism, or some other escape from reality

mro_name 5y ago
I wonder who are today's Semmelweis. Privacy advocats? Paper lobbyists? Climate activits? And how to no go insane and drown in Cassandra syndrome?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- smarx007 5y ago
  Constant Anxiety Won't Save the World: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/constant-anxiety-wont-save-the-world/537132/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/constant-...
  - mro_name 5y ago
    Indeed. Last year I resolved to only get upset about things I can change. The challenge now is to tell the difference.
- heisenbit 5y ago
  To a degree the early people in the western countries who called for wearing masks. Ironically they were laughed at due to a cargo cult based on Semmelweis‘s insights.
  - 5y ago

dang 5y ago

Some past relevant threads: The history of economic growth is a tale of cleanliness - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24021044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24021044 - Aug 2020 (47 comments) A doctor who championed hand-washing and briefly saved lives (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802761 - July 2020 (88 comments) Sanitation conquered disease long before vaccines or antibiotics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22173638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22173638 - Jan 2020 (71 comments) The Doctor Who Championed Hand-Washing and Briefly Saved Lives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8897387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8897387 - Jan 2015 (41 comments) Look at yourself objectively - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828 - Aug 2012 (77 comments)

ncmncm 5y ago

Amazingly, his advice is to this day only fitfully obeyed in possibly a majority of American hospitals. Compliance with hand-washing rules has been very hard to enforce. But nitrile gloves are often used, instead, in many places, which takes much of the pressure off.

ArcturianDeath 5y ago

OMG, if he wasnt born, no one could have discovered that

ridiculous_leke 5y ago

Aaron Shwartz also covered it here: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis He also mentions why the doctors didn't accept his findings. They simple weren't willing to accept their roles in the death of mothers.

malthaus 5y ago

Naive question: How likely is it that the constant use of hand sanitizers due to the pandemic (which might stay on as a habit) has negative side effects for the population as whole or individuals, e.g. killing "good bacteria", creating resistances, weakening the immune system?

nobodyknowsyoda 5y ago
Probably not good for individuals. I am a germophobe and my immune system is a lot weaker than my friends who share drinks, eat stuff off the floor, eat street food, kiss random strangers etc[0] Probably great for the population and likely to increase Earth’s carrying capacity of humans, as is the case with most technological progress (hand washing, plumbing, agricultural techniques increasing food production per hectare, micronutrient fortification). We become dependent on these things and as long as they stick around as reliable infrastructure then we are good It is important to keep in mind, however, that exposing oneself to pathogens from other humans is distinct from exposing oneself to various neutral microorganisms from the environment that help diversify your micro biome and generally make your immune system stronger. “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” does not apply to oneself and Ebola or HIV or even malaria in a very practical sense. Perhaps most relatable to Hacker News folks is that each infection in one’s body offers a nonzero chance of lowering one’s IQ. That should suffice as reason to avoid disease Edit: [0] I get sick a lot more easily than they do, and uh, it took me 9 months to recover from Covid (long Covid)

tdrgabi 5y ago

I don't know if it's ok to link to reddit from here, but here's a good explanation why Semmelweis ideas were not accepted from the beginning: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/2bnsjx/ignaz_semmelweis_the_tesla_of_medicine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/2bnsjx/ignaz_se... tldr: it was a very radical idea and he was a difficult, unliked man. I read that as "kind of a jerk", but that's my interpretation. We might react the same way if the person you dislike for being a smartass comes with an idea that there are invisible tiny things killing people. I think there's a lesson here, it's not enough to be right. You need to sell your ideas well. Especially if you're selling to a group that already dislike you due to previous interactions.

carlmr 5y ago
>You need to sell your ideas well. Especially if you're selling to a group that already dislike you due to previous interactions. Alternatively, be nice to people, making it easier for them to like your ideas.
- I_complete_me 5y ago
  It seems logical to me that good ideas could be available to intolerable people.
- dsego 5y ago
  This is like the first few chapters of "How to Win Friends & Influence People". Mostly never criticize people, it just makes them want to save face.
  - carlmr 5y ago
    I think it says to criticize in private and laud in public. We are all emotional beings, so I think it's good advice.
    - dsego 5y ago
      Not just emotional. My biggest takeaway is that everyone wants to feel important, that they matter. And it's true whether you are a president or a petty criminal. It's a very strong emotion.

AbuAssar 5y ago

Muslims are ordered to wash their hands (and feet) 5 times daily AT LEAST! Since ~570 AD

wombatmobile 5y ago

AUG. 28, 2013 Study: Doctors don't wash hands properly 40% of the time https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/08/28/Study-Doctors-dont-wash-hands-properly-40-of-the-time/91061377740214/ https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/08/28/Study-Doctors-don...

wombatmobile 5y ago

Why don't doctors wash their hands? A correlational study of thinking styles and hand hygiene https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0196655308000655 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01966...

napier 5y ago

Ironically, today it’s hand washing experts contributing to morbidity and loss of life by stonewalling airborne transmission precautions: masks that actually filter small particles and fit seal, building ventilation upgrades, and switching the the school year to outdoor classes during the summer. All blocked by hand washing experts whose groupthink egos refuse to accept basic laws of physics and evidence based policy that countries like Japan have auctioned since the very beginning of the pandemic.

hyperbovine 5y ago
Sources please.

credit_guy 5y ago

The same 3 words killed hundreds of thousands of people in 2020: Wash your hands. Don't wear a mask.

redis_mlc 5y ago
Most of the masks used outside hospitals are only 5% effective. Non-N95 masks simply don't work. What you said illustrates: - how most people actually care about theater and virtue signalling, not science. - how people are quick to shame other people with no evidence.

Arete314159 5y ago

Last spring, a bunch of aerosol experts like K. Prather were saying, "hey guys, Covid is airborne." Crickets from the "real" experts on Covid. It took hundreds of thousands of deaths for people to sort of get that it's airborne, and even now the ramifications of that -- for example, that all healthcare workers should wear N95's instead of surgical masks -- have not really been understood and accepted. It's the same thing all over again.