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>> To give an example, what if the algorithm is to generate the correct algorithm? That's not a description of an algorithm. You've stated a "problem". An algo

>> To give an example, what if the algorithm is to generate the correct algorithm? That's not a description of an algorithm. You've stated a "problem". An algorithm, by definition, is an actual deterministic procedure.

skissane 5y ago
> That's not a description of an algorithm. You've stated a "problem". I wanted to say the same thing, but you managed to find the words I couldn't. > An algorithm, by definition, is an actual deterministic procedure That's not necessarily true. There are non-deterministic algorithms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_algorithm
- Rioghasarig 5y ago
  I guess you're right. But I was trying to defend Valmar's statement which I still think is basically right in this context. Computers can't really implement non-deterministic algorithms.
  - skissane 5y ago
    > Computers can't really implement non-deterministic algorithms. Well they can. Quantum computers are inherently non-deterministic. Even for a classical computer, access to a true randomness source (such as a sufficiently good hardware RNG) is enough to make a classical computer non-deterministic, and hence programs that rely on that true randomness source are classified as non-deterministic. In practice, we sometimes classify a program as nondeterministic even if it only has access to pseudorandomness, provided that pseudorandomness is "random enough". If a program uses a high quality PRNG seeded with the current time, that might be practically considered non-deterministic, even though strictly speaking the program's behaviour is a deterministic function of the current time (and other inputs).
onethought 5y ago
Where do neural networks fall? Are you tautologically saying “determinism is determinism” because you define an algorithm as a “deterministic procedure”.
- skissane 5y ago
  Artificial neural networks can be either deterministic or non-deterministic. Biological neural networks are non-deterministic. (You can debate philosophically whether apparent non-determinism is actually fundamentally non-deterministic or ultimately reduces to some hidden determinism. It depends on one's choice of interpretation of quantum theory – many worlds and hidden variables both claim that reality is fundamentally deterministic, other interpretations do not. But, whether or not non-determinism ultimately exists, it certainly apparently exists, both in biological and technological systems.)
- Rioghasarig 5y ago
  Yes I was asserting that algorithms are by definition deterministic. But I guess you can technically consider non-deterministic algorithms but those aren't really relevant here. Computers don't behave non-deterministically. Every program in your computer describes a deterministic process.

skissane 5y ago

> That's not a description of an algorithm. You've stated a "problem". I wanted to say the same thing, but you managed to find the words I couldn't. > An algorithm, by definition, is an actual deterministic procedure That's not necessarily true. There are non-deterministic algorithms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_algorithm

Rioghasarig 5y ago
I guess you're right. But I was trying to defend Valmar's statement which I still think is basically right in this context. Computers can't really implement non-deterministic algorithms.
- skissane 5y ago
  > Computers can't really implement non-deterministic algorithms. Well they can. Quantum computers are inherently non-deterministic. Even for a classical computer, access to a true randomness source (such as a sufficiently good hardware RNG) is enough to make a classical computer non-deterministic, and hence programs that rely on that true randomness source are classified as non-deterministic. In practice, we sometimes classify a program as nondeterministic even if it only has access to pseudorandomness, provided that pseudorandomness is "random enough". If a program uses a high quality PRNG seeded with the current time, that might be practically considered non-deterministic, even though strictly speaking the program's behaviour is a deterministic function of the current time (and other inputs).

onethought 5y ago

Where do neural networks fall? Are you tautologically saying “determinism is determinism” because you define an algorithm as a “deterministic procedure”.

skissane 5y ago
Artificial neural networks can be either deterministic or non-deterministic. Biological neural networks are non-deterministic. (You can debate philosophically whether apparent non-determinism is actually fundamentally non-deterministic or ultimately reduces to some hidden determinism. It depends on one's choice of interpretation of quantum theory – many worlds and hidden variables both claim that reality is fundamentally deterministic, other interpretations do not. But, whether or not non-determinism ultimately exists, it certainly apparently exists, both in biological and technological systems.)
Rioghasarig 5y ago
Yes I was asserting that algorithms are by definition deterministic. But I guess you can technically consider non-deterministic algorithms but those aren't really relevant here. Computers don't behave non-deterministically. Every program in your computer describes a deterministic process.