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Probably a dumb question, but is there any possibility of temporarily getting the price to slightly above 0 in order to let people get their money out? For exam

Probably a dumb question, but is there any possibility of temporarily getting the price to slightly above 0 in order to let people get their money out? For example, could some group with a lot of money offer to buy/sell a bit until the oracle considers it above 0, in exchange for some sort of compensation from the investors or devs?

Udik 5y ago
Yep, and btw, how can the price of anything be exactly 0? This doesn't sound right either.
- meowface 5y ago
  According to the graph in the post (https://miro.medium.com/max/6088/1*tzpAFvuxVeumWO8ENz_SZg.png https://miro.medium.com/max/6088/1*tzpAFvuxVeumWO8ENz_SZg.pn...), it's somewhere around 0.0961 as of that time, and I suppose the price oracle they're using rounds that down to zero, perhaps? Or maybe the contract is rounding it down? Either way, I agree it's odd that exactly zero would be reported even if it's very close to zero. edit: Nevermind, I misread. It's -0.0961, apparently.
  - sva_ 5y ago
    The price is actually something like $0.000000033869. https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    Negative 0.0961
    - meowface 5y ago
      Oops, you're right. I misread.
- aodin 5y ago
  Well, a price can go negative [1], so I wouldn't consider zero to be surprising. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/26/why-oil-prices-went-negative-and-why-they-can-go-negative-again.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/26/why-oil-prices-went-negative...
  - jefftk 5y ago
    A price can go negative for a physical thing which requires upkeep, but I don't see how a coin which imposes no obligations on an owner who just chooses to walk away, can have a negative price?
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    Oil went negative in the same way the price of my trash is negative: more of it was being produced than people wanted to buy, but the producer had to get rid of it because they couldn't stop production. As another commenter said, you can just walk away from a digital asset, so this isn't a problem. I can't walk away from my trash.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Price can be a number of things - current best offer from a seller, best offer from a buyer, mid between them, etc. (Stocks often report either the mid or “last trade” but the bid-ask spread can get wide for rarely traded securities, especially Lon-dated options). I don’t know what the Oracle is using but it would be amusing if something else means the price is “stuck” at zero once it hits zero.
treis 5y ago
The article laughs at the developers but then gets things fundamentally wrong. The error isn't an off by one error, to begin with. Then, as you note, it doesn't make any sense for the coins to be locked. The oracle should always report a price above 0 and if for some reason it's not it should be relatively trivial to get it to
sva_ 5y ago
Their docs state that there should be a max supply of 1 billion iron titan tokens[0]. But according to coingecko, there are over 27 trillion in circulation[1]. I think that's probably where the trouble started, and at that amount, I doubt they'll be able to get the price up. I may be totally wrong though, I heard about this project for the first time today. [0] https://docs.iron.finance/iron-finance-on-polygon/titan-distribution https://docs.iron.finance/iron-finance-on-polygon/titan-dist... [1] https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token edit: On further inspection, it seems like they'd just need to get the price up to the 6th digit[3]. I'm not sure it's feasible though. [3] https://github.com/IronFinance/iron-polygon-contracts/blob/master/contracts/oracle/ShareOracle.sol#L16 https://github.com/IronFinance/iron-polygon-contracts/blob/m...
- rank0 5y ago
  > Their docs state that there should be a max supply of 1 billion iron titan tokens[0]. But according to coingecko, there are over 27 trillion in circulation[1]. How on earth does something like this happen?
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    Well, we can already see they screwed up a basic piece of code in the IRON smart contract, so is that really so surprising?
    - rank0 5y ago
      I suppose yes and no. Screwing up the maximum supply seems like an enormous blunder while I kinda understand the assumption that “price > 0” if they’re supposed to be backed by 75% usdc.
      - Thorrez 5y ago
        You might be confused. The "price > 0" refers to the price of TITAN. TITAN isn't backed by USDC at all. IRON is (ideally) backed by 75% USDC and 25% TITAN.
dkokelley 5y ago
I'm wondering the same. I don't know how the mechanics of blockchain oracles work, but it seems feasible that the oracle operators could report a price high enough for the contract to believe it's `> 0`. Reasons why this might NOT work: 1. The oracle "broadcasts" the price to the network, which other services may rely on. Broadcasting a false price could hurt those services, and the oracle would lose credibility. 2. The oracle's price is somehow tied into other blockchain mechanics (i.e. it can only report a price that the network consensus agrees is true) I'm not sure how #2 could be true, since the purpose of an oracle is to provide information that the blockchain can't determine on its own. EDIT: More info on the price oracle in use here: https://docs.iron.finance/mechanism/pricing-oracle https://docs.iron.finance/mechanism/pricing-oracle Still not sure the exact mechanism, but #1 seems to be the concern. Chainlink can't readily tamper with the price feed that may be in use by others.
deleted 5y ago
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bena 5y ago
Here's a better question: Why? This is exactly what crypto-enthusiasts claim is going to happen to the US Dollar and I've never heard mention of crypto taking pity on fiat by offering to give them crypto when the bottom finally falls out of fiat. So why should anyone else be responsible for people who took a calculated risk that blew up in their face? Yes, this sucks for them. But this shit happens. Don't throw good money after bad.
- meowface 5y ago
  >Here's a better question: Why? A calculated risk is that you put money into something which may end up losing all of its value; not that your collateral becomes locked in a safe with an accidentally lost key. They had a reasonable expectation that even if the value was totally lost, they wouldn't have their collateral locked forever. Their investment, yes, but not their collateral. Sure, one always has to account for extreme scenarios when doing anything, like the risk of a critical flaw in the code. But to give another extreme gambling scenario: Let's say you put your car up as collateral for a huge gambling bet. You of course take a calculated risk that if you lose the bet, you lose your car. Then let's say you back out of the bet after putting up the collateral, or you even win the bet, but there was a mixup at the casino and they thought you lost the bet and they took your car without you realizing it and it's on another continent now. In both scenarios, you hope that you can at least get some kind of compensation from the people you entrusted the collateral to, since it was just a complete fuckup on their part. You know you're not guaranteed to get anything, but I think it's reasonable to try to ask for compensation. If you just took a bet and the value plummeted, then you know it's tough luck for you and just a standard high-risk high-reward scenario that you ended up on the losing side of, but this is something else. (At least if I'm understanding this properly and the collateral really was purely collateral. Seems to be a bit complicated because they were attempting to make a... stablecoin... pegged to an intentionally volatile asset, somehow.) >This is exactly what crypto-enthusiasts claim is going to happen to the US Dollar It's mostly just Bitcoin maximalists who think that, and they're a small subset of people who own Bitcoin. This is Binance Smart Chain (basically a copy of Ethereum), and I'm sure some BSC/Ethereum users believe something similar, but it's a much smaller percentage than even Bitcoin's small percentage. Also, I don't think they think every dollar is secretly embedded with nanobots that'll encase the bill in titanium after someone at the Fed trips and falls on a big red button, which is what would be analogous to this. I think they think the dollar will lose most or all of its value due to hyperinflation. I think that's a completely unfounded belief based on an unfounded philosophy, but it's a different and entirely unrelated thing.

Udik 5y ago

Yep, and btw, how can the price of anything be exactly 0? This doesn't sound right either.

meowface 5y ago
According to the graph in the post (https://miro.medium.com/max/6088/1*tzpAFvuxVeumWO8ENz_SZg.png https://miro.medium.com/max/6088/1*tzpAFvuxVeumWO8ENz_SZg.pn...), it's somewhere around 0.0961 as of that time, and I suppose the price oracle they're using rounds that down to zero, perhaps? Or maybe the contract is rounding it down? Either way, I agree it's odd that exactly zero would be reported even if it's very close to zero. edit: Nevermind, I misread. It's -0.0961, apparently.
- sva_ 5y ago
  The price is actually something like $0.000000033869. https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token
- exporectomy 5y ago
  Negative 0.0961
  - meowface 5y ago
    Oops, you're right. I misread.
aodin 5y ago
Well, a price can go negative [1], so I wouldn't consider zero to be surprising. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/26/why-oil-prices-went-negative-and-why-they-can-go-negative-again.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/26/why-oil-prices-went-negative...
- jefftk 5y ago
  A price can go negative for a physical thing which requires upkeep, but I don't see how a coin which imposes no obligations on an owner who just chooses to walk away, can have a negative price?
- dehrmann 5y ago
  Oil went negative in the same way the price of my trash is negative: more of it was being produced than people wanted to buy, but the producer had to get rid of it because they couldn't stop production. As another commenter said, you can just walk away from a digital asset, so this isn't a problem. I can't walk away from my trash.
bombcar 5y ago
Price can be a number of things - current best offer from a seller, best offer from a buyer, mid between them, etc. (Stocks often report either the mid or “last trade” but the bid-ask spread can get wide for rarely traded securities, especially Lon-dated options). I don’t know what the Oracle is using but it would be amusing if something else means the price is “stuck” at zero once it hits zero.

treis 5y ago

The article laughs at the developers but then gets things fundamentally wrong. The error isn't an off by one error, to begin with. Then, as you note, it doesn't make any sense for the coins to be locked. The oracle should always report a price above 0 and if for some reason it's not it should be relatively trivial to get it to

sva_ 5y ago

Their docs state that there should be a max supply of 1 billion iron titan tokens[0]. But according to coingecko, there are over 27 trillion in circulation[1]. I think that's probably where the trouble started, and at that amount, I doubt they'll be able to get the price up. I may be totally wrong though, I heard about this project for the first time today. [0] https://docs.iron.finance/iron-finance-on-polygon/titan-distribution https://docs.iron.finance/iron-finance-on-polygon/titan-dist... [1] https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/iron-titanium-token edit: On further inspection, it seems like they'd just need to get the price up to the 6th digit[3]. I'm not sure it's feasible though. [3] https://github.com/IronFinance/iron-polygon-contracts/blob/master/contracts/oracle/ShareOracle.sol#L16 https://github.com/IronFinance/iron-polygon-contracts/blob/m...

rank0 5y ago
> Their docs state that there should be a max supply of 1 billion iron titan tokens[0]. But according to coingecko, there are over 27 trillion in circulation[1]. How on earth does something like this happen?
- crooked-v 5y ago
  Well, we can already see they screwed up a basic piece of code in the IRON smart contract, so is that really so surprising?
  - rank0 5y ago
    I suppose yes and no. Screwing up the maximum supply seems like an enormous blunder while I kinda understand the assumption that “price > 0” if they’re supposed to be backed by 75% usdc.
    - Thorrez 5y ago
      You might be confused. The "price > 0" refers to the price of TITAN. TITAN isn't backed by USDC at all. IRON is (ideally) backed by 75% USDC and 25% TITAN.

dkokelley 5y ago

I'm wondering the same. I don't know how the mechanics of blockchain oracles work, but it seems feasible that the oracle operators could report a price high enough for the contract to believe it's `> 0`. Reasons why this might NOT work: 1. The oracle "broadcasts" the price to the network, which other services may rely on. Broadcasting a false price could hurt those services, and the oracle would lose credibility. 2. The oracle's price is somehow tied into other blockchain mechanics (i.e. it can only report a price that the network consensus agrees is true) I'm not sure how #2 could be true, since the purpose of an oracle is to provide information that the blockchain can't determine on its own. EDIT: More info on the price oracle in use here: https://docs.iron.finance/mechanism/pricing-oracle https://docs.iron.finance/mechanism/pricing-oracle Still not sure the exact mechanism, but #1 seems to be the concern. Chainlink can't readily tamper with the price feed that may be in use by others.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bena 5y ago

Here's a better question: Why? This is exactly what crypto-enthusiasts claim is going to happen to the US Dollar and I've never heard mention of crypto taking pity on fiat by offering to give them crypto when the bottom finally falls out of fiat. So why should anyone else be responsible for people who took a calculated risk that blew up in their face? Yes, this sucks for them. But this shit happens. Don't throw good money after bad.

meowface 5y ago
>Here's a better question: Why? A calculated risk is that you put money into something which may end up losing all of its value; not that your collateral becomes locked in a safe with an accidentally lost key. They had a reasonable expectation that even if the value was totally lost, they wouldn't have their collateral locked forever. Their investment, yes, but not their collateral. Sure, one always has to account for extreme scenarios when doing anything, like the risk of a critical flaw in the code. But to give another extreme gambling scenario: Let's say you put your car up as collateral for a huge gambling bet. You of course take a calculated risk that if you lose the bet, you lose your car. Then let's say you back out of the bet after putting up the collateral, or you even win the bet, but there was a mixup at the casino and they thought you lost the bet and they took your car without you realizing it and it's on another continent now. In both scenarios, you hope that you can at least get some kind of compensation from the people you entrusted the collateral to, since it was just a complete fuckup on their part. You know you're not guaranteed to get anything, but I think it's reasonable to try to ask for compensation. If you just took a bet and the value plummeted, then you know it's tough luck for you and just a standard high-risk high-reward scenario that you ended up on the losing side of, but this is something else. (At least if I'm understanding this properly and the collateral really was purely collateral. Seems to be a bit complicated because they were attempting to make a... stablecoin... pegged to an intentionally volatile asset, somehow.) >This is exactly what crypto-enthusiasts claim is going to happen to the US Dollar It's mostly just Bitcoin maximalists who think that, and they're a small subset of people who own Bitcoin. This is Binance Smart Chain (basically a copy of Ethereum), and I'm sure some BSC/Ethereum users believe something similar, but it's a much smaller percentage than even Bitcoin's small percentage. Also, I don't think they think every dollar is secretly embedded with nanobots that'll encase the bill in titanium after someone at the Fed trips and falls on a big red button, which is what would be analogous to this. I think they think the dollar will lose most or all of its value due to hyperinflation. I think that's a completely unfounded belief based on an unfounded philosophy, but it's a different and entirely unrelated thing.