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I am teaching a web-development course with PHP at university. Since PHP was preinstalled on MacOS in a ancient version, it was extremly hard for freshmen to ge

I am teaching a web-development course with PHP at university. Since PHP was preinstalled on MacOS in a ancient version, it was extremly hard for freshmen to get their mac prepared for the exercices. Windows users had a very simple start, basically just downloading and extracting a zip file from php.net... This seems to be good news for me, however most students have older macs so this will propably take some time to take effect...

dagmx 5y ago
Why couldn't they just install a newer version of PHP though?
- larkost 5y ago
  On MacOS most of the files that makeup the system are now write protected (not just the file permissions, but something called "System Integrity Protection" or SIP). So you can't overwrite them. You can add a new install, but then you have to know how to change your $PATH to view that location first. That is just one more thing you have to know. Apple did start to have a binary in the default location that was really a chooser that would respect per-user settings and re-direct you (exec) to the "right" install, but they seemed to have backed off on that.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    But that's normal. On any OS you shouldn't be replacing OS files and instead you should be prepending to PATH.
ben174 5y ago
Why are universities still teaching PHP? Is this a “programming” class or a specifically a PHP class that they offer for people who want to learn that particular language?
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  Why do you believe that PHP isn’t worth learning? Please don’t frame your personal opinions as assumption-laden questions. If you think PHP isn’t worth it, then say that directly and openly. Framing your belief as a loaded question is not conducive to good discussion.
- Dudeman112 5y ago
  PHP was the back-end language for my 'web development' classes. What language would you pick for that?
- conductr 5y ago
  As a self taught, PHP was much more friendly to start with than anything else. Ruby and Python are close and would be better except that underestimates the learning hurdle with OOP and learning about libraries, etc.
- la_fayette 5y ago
  Why are there still trolls on the internet? Simple answer: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_langua...
floatingatoll 5y ago
‘brew install php’ works across most ages of Macs and provides consistent paths for config files across deploymentd, in case that’s useful.
- lukifer 5y ago
  The real tragedy is that Apple hasn't taken over and bundled brew with the OS (or come up with their own blessed CLI package manager).
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    If Apple doesn't want to be in the business of keeping Python up to date, I can't possibly imagine them wanting to be in the business of keeping one thousand Pythons up to date.
  - astrange 5y ago
    MacPorts, which is older than Homebrew and better designed, used to be an Apple project.
- afavour 5y ago
  That also requires installation of Homebrew. Not like it's the end of the world or anything but it's still another step to go through for someone that's just starting out in webdev. Back in the day I remember all-in-one LAMP stack apps for Windows that made it very, very simple to get going (and if I recall didn't require admin permissions either).
  - calibas 5y ago
    In my experience, Homebrew is usually the simplest route and should be the first choice for people just starting out. It's one simple "extra" step at the beginning that saves you from multiple, more complex steps later on.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    It sure does, and that's certainly a drawback versus a solution that's preinstalled — but if someone is going to become a webdev on a Mac, they will be unable to depend on preinstalled scripting languages and so any manner of instruction that requires a working go/node/python/ruby/perl installation will be forced to either use Homebrew or to handcraft replacements for Homebrew. I would consider teaching students the skeletal basics of Homebrew to be a valuable pillar of their ability to perform webdev workplace duties using a Mac. I would consider teaching students the deep details of trying to build their own python and ruby on Mac to not be a valuable pillar of their ability to perform webdev workplace duties using a Mac. So I don't see how there's any alternative to Homebrew, not if they want to prepare their students for today's reality. "Use what's preinstalled with a Mac" is no longer a viable solution, and in my best judgement Homebrew is the minimum work necessary to get them from zero to ready. If there are alternatives that are as simple as Homebrew to have students deploy and maintain as a teacher, we'd all love to learn more about them.

dagmx 5y ago

Why couldn't they just install a newer version of PHP though?

larkost 5y ago
On MacOS most of the files that makeup the system are now write protected (not just the file permissions, but something called "System Integrity Protection" or SIP). So you can't overwrite them. You can add a new install, but then you have to know how to change your $PATH to view that location first. That is just one more thing you have to know. Apple did start to have a binary in the default location that was really a chooser that would respect per-user settings and re-direct you (exec) to the "right" install, but they seemed to have backed off on that.
- dagmx 5y ago
  But that's normal. On any OS you shouldn't be replacing OS files and instead you should be prepending to PATH.

ben174 5y ago

Why are universities still teaching PHP? Is this a “programming” class or a specifically a PHP class that they offer for people who want to learn that particular language?

floatingatoll 5y ago
Why do you believe that PHP isn’t worth learning? Please don’t frame your personal opinions as assumption-laden questions. If you think PHP isn’t worth it, then say that directly and openly. Framing your belief as a loaded question is not conducive to good discussion.
Dudeman112 5y ago
PHP was the back-end language for my 'web development' classes. What language would you pick for that?
conductr 5y ago
As a self taught, PHP was much more friendly to start with than anything else. Ruby and Python are close and would be better except that underestimates the learning hurdle with OOP and learning about libraries, etc.
la_fayette 5y ago
Why are there still trolls on the internet? Simple answer: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_langua...

floatingatoll 5y ago

‘brew install php’ works across most ages of Macs and provides consistent paths for config files across deploymentd, in case that’s useful.

lukifer 5y ago
The real tragedy is that Apple hasn't taken over and bundled brew with the OS (or come up with their own blessed CLI package manager).
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  If Apple doesn't want to be in the business of keeping Python up to date, I can't possibly imagine them wanting to be in the business of keeping one thousand Pythons up to date.
- astrange 5y ago
  MacPorts, which is older than Homebrew and better designed, used to be an Apple project.
afavour 5y ago
That also requires installation of Homebrew. Not like it's the end of the world or anything but it's still another step to go through for someone that's just starting out in webdev. Back in the day I remember all-in-one LAMP stack apps for Windows that made it very, very simple to get going (and if I recall didn't require admin permissions either).
- calibas 5y ago
  In my experience, Homebrew is usually the simplest route and should be the first choice for people just starting out. It's one simple "extra" step at the beginning that saves you from multiple, more complex steps later on.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  It sure does, and that's certainly a drawback versus a solution that's preinstalled — but if someone is going to become a webdev on a Mac, they will be unable to depend on preinstalled scripting languages and so any manner of instruction that requires a working go/node/python/ruby/perl installation will be forced to either use Homebrew or to handcraft replacements for Homebrew. I would consider teaching students the skeletal basics of Homebrew to be a valuable pillar of their ability to perform webdev workplace duties using a Mac. I would consider teaching students the deep details of trying to build their own python and ruby on Mac to not be a valuable pillar of their ability to perform webdev workplace duties using a Mac. So I don't see how there's any alternative to Homebrew, not if they want to prepare their students for today's reality. "Use what's preinstalled with a Mac" is no longer a viable solution, and in my best judgement Homebrew is the minimum work necessary to get them from zero to ready. If there are alternatives that are as simple as Homebrew to have students deploy and maintain as a teacher, we'd all love to learn more about them.