5 ms·

Deception is a technique often used during interragation. This leads to MANY issues including false confessions. Illinois at least recently passed a law disall

Deception is a technique often used during interragation. This leads to MANY issues including false confessions. Illinois at least recently passed a law disallowing police to lie to minors (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/31/us/Chicago-police-interrogation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/31/us/Chicago-police-interro...) but that leads to the question of why is it not okay to lie to minors but it is okay to lie to the handicapped, mentally ill, the elderly or even an adult with full mental capacity (whatever that means)?

jhgb 5y ago
Why would government officials be allowed to lie to anyone in the public?
- Vosporos 5y ago
  To uphold the domination of said government over the public. Why do you think most revolution are started?
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  In theory, to get people to inadvertently give out evidence thereby furthering justice and protecting people. I'm not sure how well this translates to practice.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    I would imagine that ideally any extraordinary circumstances like that would have to be individually rubber-stamped, and not some kind of default.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Well, I'm theory again this applies to any case in which a cop is interrogating someone who isn't simply free to go, for that there must be probable cause of something illegal.
      - hluska 5y ago
        Sadly, they have way more discretion than that. A police officer can lie to encourage you to waive any constitutional rights…
- hluska 5y ago
  My understanding is that there is a class of criminals who are so bad, yet so gifted, that you couldn’t hope to prosecute them without deception. So in Canada at least, police can do things to civilians that would be called obstruction of justice if we did them to the police. In a nutshell, we can stay silent so who cares? The problem with that is that everyone should care. By the nature of their jobs, police deal with people with a variety of disabilities, levels of education and language comprehension. I don’t know that it’s reasonable to expect people to have the presence to remain silent. Yet if they don’t, we’ll happily incarcerate them. I don’t like crime but I hate innocent people being punished for crimes they didn’t commit.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    Pleading the 5th wouldn't be an issue if I didn't lose my job in the process and didn't have to leverage my own legal costs knowing I'm innocent. That is why I like the german legal system where prosecutors are much choosier over cases and also reimburse the defendants for being held if found innocent.
    - hluska 5y ago
      Very well said. As Immortal Technique said, in the North American legal system, "it's better to be rich and guilty than poor and innocent." If the state chooses to prosecute, it's impossible (edit - for most people) to match their resources unless you're both incredibly lucky and prepared to have to start over from $0 after the trial with no job.
      - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
        At the very least, an employer cannot fire you unless there is a guilty verdict (plea or not). Like that should be a basic worker protection. Companies shouldn't be allowed to fire you based off of state speculation.
    - appleflaxen 5y ago
      Why do you lose your job for pleading the fifth?
mc32 5y ago
You know, I'm not so mad at them for lying. It's a useful tool... what really gets me is when they charge/imprison people for lying --not under oath. Like the FBI did to mrs. Stewart. They could not get her on their original charge, so they got her for "lying to a federal agent". That's bullshit.
me_me_me 5y ago
Here is the thing. Lies are a tool and the interrogator needs to be skilful with this. Just like with a hammer you can fix or break something if you don't wield the tool correctly. When they lie, those statements are constructed to pull informations out that would otherwise be hidden. If the lie is constructed with leading facts it might end up lead into false confessions (thats bad). Investigator can include false info during the 'lie' to try to spot a false confession (covering for someone else, or even confusion and stress and wanting to get out of hostile environment). Bad investigator will lie and force a confession facts onto suspect. As already mentioned some people might crack under stress of the situation and go into fight or flight - 'get me out of here I will tell you anything' - because they were fed actual crime facts, suspect will use those to construct a confession that will look like a real thing. That practice is something people should get fired over.

jhgb 5y ago

Why would government officials be allowed to lie to anyone in the public?

Vosporos 5y ago
To uphold the domination of said government over the public. Why do you think most revolution are started?
sudosysgen 5y ago
In theory, to get people to inadvertently give out evidence thereby furthering justice and protecting people. I'm not sure how well this translates to practice.
- jhgb 5y ago
  I would imagine that ideally any extraordinary circumstances like that would have to be individually rubber-stamped, and not some kind of default.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Well, I'm theory again this applies to any case in which a cop is interrogating someone who isn't simply free to go, for that there must be probable cause of something illegal.
    - hluska 5y ago
      Sadly, they have way more discretion than that. A police officer can lie to encourage you to waive any constitutional rights…
hluska 5y ago
My understanding is that there is a class of criminals who are so bad, yet so gifted, that you couldn’t hope to prosecute them without deception. So in Canada at least, police can do things to civilians that would be called obstruction of justice if we did them to the police. In a nutshell, we can stay silent so who cares? The problem with that is that everyone should care. By the nature of their jobs, police deal with people with a variety of disabilities, levels of education and language comprehension. I don’t know that it’s reasonable to expect people to have the presence to remain silent. Yet if they don’t, we’ll happily incarcerate them. I don’t like crime but I hate innocent people being punished for crimes they didn’t commit.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  Pleading the 5th wouldn't be an issue if I didn't lose my job in the process and didn't have to leverage my own legal costs knowing I'm innocent. That is why I like the german legal system where prosecutors are much choosier over cases and also reimburse the defendants for being held if found innocent.
  - hluska 5y ago
    Very well said. As Immortal Technique said, in the North American legal system, "it's better to be rich and guilty than poor and innocent." If the state chooses to prosecute, it's impossible (edit - for most people) to match their resources unless you're both incredibly lucky and prepared to have to start over from $0 after the trial with no job.
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      At the very least, an employer cannot fire you unless there is a guilty verdict (plea or not). Like that should be a basic worker protection. Companies shouldn't be allowed to fire you based off of state speculation.
  - appleflaxen 5y ago
    Why do you lose your job for pleading the fifth?

mc32 5y ago

You know, I'm not so mad at them for lying. It's a useful tool... what really gets me is when they charge/imprison people for lying --not under oath. Like the FBI did to mrs. Stewart. They could not get her on their original charge, so they got her for "lying to a federal agent". That's bullshit.

me_me_me 5y ago

Here is the thing. Lies are a tool and the interrogator needs to be skilful with this. Just like with a hammer you can fix or break something if you don't wield the tool correctly. When they lie, those statements are constructed to pull informations out that would otherwise be hidden. If the lie is constructed with leading facts it might end up lead into false confessions (thats bad). Investigator can include false info during the 'lie' to try to spot a false confession (covering for someone else, or even confusion and stress and wanting to get out of hostile environment). Bad investigator will lie and force a confession facts onto suspect. As already mentioned some people might crack under stress of the situation and go into fight or flight - 'get me out of here I will tell you anything' - because they were fed actual crime facts, suspect will use those to construct a confession that will look like a real thing. That practice is something people should get fired over.