8 ms·

Counter argument: removing languages from OSX is good, because built in languages are the source of a lot of friction in development. The installed version nece

Counter argument: removing languages from OSX is good, because built in languages are the source of a lot of friction in development. The installed version necessarily lags behind what most developers want, and having a tool chain completely separate from whatever manager you’ve installed really sucks. For end users, the interpreter can be bundled with the application, that is much more stable for everyone.

rovr138 5y ago
Python developers I know get their interpreter installed. This is vs people in college I know that are dabbling in Python or people starting with it on a professional setting. I currently have over 5 different python versions installed to be able to test against them. The different software I work gets deployed to different environments and I have all those versions installed locally to test. For end users, it doesn't matter as long as it works. The less moving pieces, the better. A bundled interpreter in the OS gives a stable platform to develop against. The interpreter can be bundled with the application, of course. But now you have n different interpreters with their own php.ini files and their own set of things to change. Upgrading the application means overwriting those files and causing more pain when they have to figure out why something stopped working.
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  > I currently have over 5 different python versions installed to be able to test against them That's absurd. Five versions of the same language. Each with their own package folders. That's at least 15 GB. This is a luxury and consequence of infinite compute resources.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    It's a reality of pragmatism when different projects target different versions of the interpreter and there's no guarantee that different versions are not breaking some behaviour.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    ... and if you're talking MacOS laptop and desktop ecosystem, it's a luxury you have and should take advantage of.
  - rovr138 5y ago
    > That's absurd. How come? It's pretty practical. I'm a developer. I deploy to multiple targets so I have them all. I test against them. Simple enough. To talk to the point of the link here, what I distribute to MacOS I only have to worry about 1 interpreter because it's the one embedded on the OS (and at work, I can guarantee the version). The problem for me is Linux and whatever is bundled on the version of the distro that's currently running. > This is a luxury and consequence of infinite compute resources. It's a consequence of what I deploy to. If I only had 1 target and could guarantee it, I'd only need one.
    - SavantIdiot 5y ago
      Newer programmers have accepted this as "normal". It only started becoming this much ridiculous cumulative upkeep in the past decade or so. It's lazy. Lazy on behalf of the Python maintainers. And you keep accepting it instead of pushing back. You could have only one version, but you've been brainwashed to think having 5 versions of python on your machine is normal. I'm not dissing version releases, just the adoption and deprecation. I wrote DirectX drivers for years, and going from DX3 to 5 to 7 meant backwards compatibility, and it was a PITA, but releases came out every two years and were deprecated shortly after so we didn't have vast quantities of exponential regressions. OpenGL was rock solid by comparison. The former was trial-and-error by MSoft, the latter was well thought out by consortium.
      - Avamander 5y ago
        > You could have only one version, but you've been brainwashed to think having 5 versions of python on your machine is normal. Is the strict requirement of a single Python version really that much better?
        SavantIdiot 5y ago
        From the cost of testing, absolutely. By definition 5 version is 5x more testing. But since most python code is just crap thrown onto githubs and stackoverflow, who cares if it is regressed. But for devs trying to write solid, long-lived code, their cost of testing skyrockets. Python's LTS plan is not strict enough, and releases too frequent. As exhibit A, I give you their attempt at deprecating python2.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    I've got 3 different Python versions installed with pyenv and they only take up about 900MB.
    - rovr138 5y ago
      I have no idea on where the 15GB either comes from. I also use pyenv and pyenv-virtualenv and my ~/.pyenv is not close to that.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > A bundled interpreter in the OS gives a stable platform to develop. But it wouldn't be stable. Or it would be, but it would be hopelessly out of date. Apple can either keep the bundled interpreters on the same version forever, or they can update it with the OS. Do the former, and it becomes hopelessly out of date. Do the latter, and software updates randomly break stuff. Either the language developers need to actually keep their languages stable, or everyone else just needs to get used to keeping multiple versions around.
  - rovr138 5y ago
    >Or it would be, but it would be hopelessly out of date I think you need to define "out of date". Out of date for me means not receiving security updates and stale. I think you mean not the latest version and stable for me is better in a production environment. Google example, look at Debian stable.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      > I think you need to define "out of date". Well, look at this way—the latest consumer version of macOS still comes with Python 2.
      - rovr138 5y ago
        So... $ /usr/bin/python WARNING: Python 2.7 is not recommended. This version is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS will not include Python 2.7. Instead, it is recommended that you transition to using 'python3' from within Terminal. Python 2.7.16 (default, Dec 21 2020, 23:00:36) [GCC Apple LLVM 12.0.0 (clang-1200.0.30.4) [+internal-os, ptrauth-isa=sign+stri on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> exit() but wait, also, $ /usr/bin/python3 Python 3.8.2 (default, Apr 8 2021, 23:19:18) [Clang 12.0.5 (clang-1205.0.22.9)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> exit() I think we should take the lines, > This version is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. > Future versions of macOS will not include Python 2.7. > Instead, it is recommended that you transition to using 'python3' from within Terminal. For exactly what it says. It's included for compatibility with legacy software and should be transitioned from it to another version... the other version that's bundled with it.
- bborud 5y ago
  > For end users, it doesn't matter as long as it works.The less moving pieces, the better. A bundled interpreter in the OS gives a stable platform to develop against. I can understand what you wish for. But what you wish for is very far from what we’ve had so far. Time to accept reality.
vbezhenar 5y ago
For end users the OS can be bundled with the application, that is much more stable for everyone.
- sidlls 5y ago
  Sarcasm doesn't make a poor point better.
  - 0x4a42 5y ago
    Is it really sarcasm? I have often seen workstations pre-installed with an OS and some specific software sold as « bundle ». ie in medical domain, cnc, video…
  - suprfsat 5y ago
    Electron is wildly successful, it's not a poor point at all.
    - sidlls 5y ago
      In the HN bubble, sure.
      - suprfsat 5y ago
        I bet I can find several users of Slack or Visual Studio Code who haven't even heard of HN.
        rovr138 5y ago
        Don't forget Spotify, WhatsApp desktop client, Skype, discord,
      - rovr138 5y ago
        I think that's one place where it's divided and contended. People here are pretty vocal and critical of electron.
racl101 5y ago
Yeah, I've used PHP for a decade and have always never used what comes with MacOS. Always installed a newer version.
- rovr138 5y ago
  /usr/bin/php --version WARNING: PHP is not recommended PHP is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS will not include PHP. PHP 7.3.24-(to be removed in future macOS) (cli) (built: Dec 21 2020 21:33:25) ( NTS ) Copyright (c) 1997-2018 The PHP Group Zend Engine v3.3.24, Copyright (c) 1998-2018 Zend Technologies so, 7.4 or 8? I'm still using 7.x due to limitations.
- racl101 5y ago
  7.3. Played with version 8 on a Docker instance. Will wait.
ubermonkey 5y ago
That's 100% my take on this. If Apple leaves it in the build, then Apple ends up having to support it to some degree. As long as it's trivial to install after purchase, the removal of this sort of thing is in no way concerning to me. When I've written things natively on my Mac, I've almost ALWAYS had to go get an updated version of perl / python / ruby / whatever to get current.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Especially considering that open-source projects provide this service for free. It blows my mind that Apple, The World's Most Valuable And Affluent Company, refuses to invest in a couple package maintainers for their "world class" operating system. If Apple ships it, they have an obligation to keep it up to date, especially since utilities like this pose serious security risks when left untouched.
mkr-hn 5y ago
Windows solves this for python by offering to install it from the app store the first time you use the command, and then keeps it updated.
smoldesu 5y ago
Better solution: Apple stops treating MacOS like a toy and gives it a proper package manager. I'm tired of hearing people float workarounds for a problem that can be solved by just holding Apple accountable for once.
- znpy 5y ago
  > problem that can be solved by just holding Apple accountable for once good luck with that
- sigjuice 5y ago
  Apple will do a package manager, once they work out how to bolt on an "app store" on it.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    If those are the parameters, you can safely abandon hope now.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Easy, they will follow the trend of cargo install and make it available via Swift package manager.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  'brew' works really well, no need for them to reinvent the wheel.
  - gizdan 5y ago
    Really well is an overstatement. You shouldn't have to wait several hours to do a brew upgrade.
    - 5y ago
alerighi 5y ago
Or... Apple upgrades the scripting languages regularly? I mean, they make updates that that gigabytes without changing anything, and then it's a problem to update PHP that is a couple of Mb? I don't think so...
- gizdan 5y ago
  Sure, so what about those who are one or more versions behind?
vendiddy 5y ago
I also remember having a lot of installation headaches when starting out as a developer because the preinstalled version conflicted with the version I was trying to install. This seems like a net positive change to me and I hope they can keep dropping these built in languages.
- rovr138 5y ago
  Was this an issue with things preinstalled and trying to install your own or with trying to use your own after installing your own? Wondering if it was really an issue with 2 interpreters or more of an issue with how the system works. More specifically PATH variables, shebangs and prioritizing your custom one over the system one.

rovr138 5y ago

Python developers I know get their interpreter installed. This is vs people in college I know that are dabbling in Python or people starting with it on a professional setting. I currently have over 5 different python versions installed to be able to test against them. The different software I work gets deployed to different environments and I have all those versions installed locally to test. For end users, it doesn't matter as long as it works. The less moving pieces, the better. A bundled interpreter in the OS gives a stable platform to develop against. The interpreter can be bundled with the application, of course. But now you have n different interpreters with their own php.ini files and their own set of things to change. Upgrading the application means overwriting those files and causing more pain when they have to figure out why something stopped working.

SavantIdiot 5y ago
> I currently have over 5 different python versions installed to be able to test against them That's absurd. Five versions of the same language. Each with their own package folders. That's at least 15 GB. This is a luxury and consequence of infinite compute resources.
- dagmx 5y ago
  It's a reality of pragmatism when different projects target different versions of the interpreter and there's no guarantee that different versions are not breaking some behaviour.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  ... and if you're talking MacOS laptop and desktop ecosystem, it's a luxury you have and should take advantage of.
- rovr138 5y ago
  > That's absurd. How come? It's pretty practical. I'm a developer. I deploy to multiple targets so I have them all. I test against them. Simple enough. To talk to the point of the link here, what I distribute to MacOS I only have to worry about 1 interpreter because it's the one embedded on the OS (and at work, I can guarantee the version). The problem for me is Linux and whatever is bundled on the version of the distro that's currently running. > This is a luxury and consequence of infinite compute resources. It's a consequence of what I deploy to. If I only had 1 target and could guarantee it, I'd only need one.
  - SavantIdiot 5y ago
    Newer programmers have accepted this as "normal". It only started becoming this much ridiculous cumulative upkeep in the past decade or so. It's lazy. Lazy on behalf of the Python maintainers. And you keep accepting it instead of pushing back. You could have only one version, but you've been brainwashed to think having 5 versions of python on your machine is normal. I'm not dissing version releases, just the adoption and deprecation. I wrote DirectX drivers for years, and going from DX3 to 5 to 7 meant backwards compatibility, and it was a PITA, but releases came out every two years and were deprecated shortly after so we didn't have vast quantities of exponential regressions. OpenGL was rock solid by comparison. The former was trial-and-error by MSoft, the latter was well thought out by consortium.
    - Avamander 5y ago
      > You could have only one version, but you've been brainwashed to think having 5 versions of python on your machine is normal. Is the strict requirement of a single Python version really that much better?
      - SavantIdiot 5y ago
        From the cost of testing, absolutely. By definition 5 version is 5x more testing. But since most python code is just crap thrown onto githubs and stackoverflow, who cares if it is regressed. But for devs trying to write solid, long-lived code, their cost of testing skyrockets. Python's LTS plan is not strict enough, and releases too frequent. As exhibit A, I give you their attempt at deprecating python2.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  I've got 3 different Python versions installed with pyenv and they only take up about 900MB.
  - rovr138 5y ago
    I have no idea on where the 15GB either comes from. I also use pyenv and pyenv-virtualenv and my ~/.pyenv is not close to that.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> A bundled interpreter in the OS gives a stable platform to develop. But it wouldn't be stable. Or it would be, but it would be hopelessly out of date. Apple can either keep the bundled interpreters on the same version forever, or they can update it with the OS. Do the former, and it becomes hopelessly out of date. Do the latter, and software updates randomly break stuff. Either the language developers need to actually keep their languages stable, or everyone else just needs to get used to keeping multiple versions around.
- rovr138 5y ago
  >Or it would be, but it would be hopelessly out of date I think you need to define "out of date". Out of date for me means not receiving security updates and stale. I think you mean not the latest version and stable for me is better in a production environment. Google example, look at Debian stable.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    > I think you need to define "out of date". Well, look at this way—the latest consumer version of macOS still comes with Python 2.
    - rovr138 5y ago
      So... $ /usr/bin/python WARNING: Python 2.7 is not recommended. This version is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS will not include Python 2.7. Instead, it is recommended that you transition to using 'python3' from within Terminal. Python 2.7.16 (default, Dec 21 2020, 23:00:36) [GCC Apple LLVM 12.0.0 (clang-1200.0.30.4) [+internal-os, ptrauth-isa=sign+stri on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> exit() but wait, also, $ /usr/bin/python3 Python 3.8.2 (default, Apr 8 2021, 23:19:18) [Clang 12.0.5 (clang-1205.0.22.9)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> exit() I think we should take the lines, > This version is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. > Future versions of macOS will not include Python 2.7. > Instead, it is recommended that you transition to using 'python3' from within Terminal. For exactly what it says. It's included for compatibility with legacy software and should be transitioned from it to another version... the other version that's bundled with it.
bborud 5y ago
> For end users, it doesn't matter as long as it works.The less moving pieces, the better. A bundled interpreter in the OS gives a stable platform to develop against. I can understand what you wish for. But what you wish for is very far from what we’ve had so far. Time to accept reality.

vbezhenar 5y ago

For end users the OS can be bundled with the application, that is much more stable for everyone.

sidlls 5y ago
Sarcasm doesn't make a poor point better.
- 0x4a42 5y ago
  Is it really sarcasm? I have often seen workstations pre-installed with an OS and some specific software sold as « bundle ». ie in medical domain, cnc, video…
- suprfsat 5y ago
  Electron is wildly successful, it's not a poor point at all.
  - sidlls 5y ago
    In the HN bubble, sure.
    - suprfsat 5y ago
      I bet I can find several users of Slack or Visual Studio Code who haven't even heard of HN.
      - rovr138 5y ago
        Don't forget Spotify, WhatsApp desktop client, Skype, discord,
    - rovr138 5y ago
      I think that's one place where it's divided and contended. People here are pretty vocal and critical of electron.

racl101 5y ago

Yeah, I've used PHP for a decade and have always never used what comes with MacOS. Always installed a newer version.

rovr138 5y ago
/usr/bin/php --version WARNING: PHP is not recommended PHP is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS will not include PHP. PHP 7.3.24-(to be removed in future macOS) (cli) (built: Dec 21 2020 21:33:25) ( NTS ) Copyright (c) 1997-2018 The PHP Group Zend Engine v3.3.24, Copyright (c) 1998-2018 Zend Technologies so, 7.4 or 8? I'm still using 7.x due to limitations.
racl101 5y ago
7.3. Played with version 8 on a Docker instance. Will wait.

ubermonkey 5y ago

That's 100% my take on this. If Apple leaves it in the build, then Apple ends up having to support it to some degree. As long as it's trivial to install after purchase, the removal of this sort of thing is in no way concerning to me. When I've written things natively on my Mac, I've almost ALWAYS had to go get an updated version of perl / python / ruby / whatever to get current.

smoldesu 5y ago
Especially considering that open-source projects provide this service for free. It blows my mind that Apple, The World's Most Valuable And Affluent Company, refuses to invest in a couple package maintainers for their "world class" operating system. If Apple ships it, they have an obligation to keep it up to date, especially since utilities like this pose serious security risks when left untouched.

mkr-hn 5y ago

Windows solves this for python by offering to install it from the app store the first time you use the command, and then keeps it updated.

smoldesu 5y ago

Better solution: Apple stops treating MacOS like a toy and gives it a proper package manager. I'm tired of hearing people float workarounds for a problem that can be solved by just holding Apple accountable for once.

znpy 5y ago
> problem that can be solved by just holding Apple accountable for once good luck with that
sigjuice 5y ago
Apple will do a package manager, once they work out how to bolt on an "app store" on it.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  If those are the parameters, you can safely abandon hope now.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Easy, they will follow the trend of cargo install and make it available via Swift package manager.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
vorpalhex 5y ago
'brew' works really well, no need for them to reinvent the wheel.
- gizdan 5y ago
  Really well is an overstatement. You shouldn't have to wait several hours to do a brew upgrade.
  - 5y ago

alerighi 5y ago

Or... Apple upgrades the scripting languages regularly? I mean, they make updates that that gigabytes without changing anything, and then it's a problem to update PHP that is a couple of Mb? I don't think so...

gizdan 5y ago
Sure, so what about those who are one or more versions behind?

vendiddy 5y ago

I also remember having a lot of installation headaches when starting out as a developer because the preinstalled version conflicted with the version I was trying to install. This seems like a net positive change to me and I hope they can keep dropping these built in languages.

rovr138 5y ago
Was this an issue with things preinstalled and trying to install your own or with trying to use your own after installing your own? Wondering if it was really an issue with 2 interpreters or more of an issue with how the system works. More specifically PATH variables, shebangs and prioritizing your custom one over the system one.