3 ms·

I’d guess it’d be similar to how some European cities prohibit all large retailers (including food stores) from opening on Sunday, except a hell of a lot more e

I’d guess it’d be similar to how some European cities prohibit all large retailers (including food stores) from opening on Sunday, except a hell of a lot more expensive. You’d need extra shifts on site, redundant local networks for emergency services, redundant links for phone companies, extra space in ports and warehouses, special contingency plans, etc. And all of that gets excercised 1/30 less often than usual so is more prone to failure—in a situation of where communication is degraded in the first place. An ISOC report on government Internet shutdowns (https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ISOC-PolicyBrief-Shutdowns-2019.pdf https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/I...) says Zimbabwe lost 5.7 million, or 10% daily GDP, per day during a sudden six-day shutdown. A regular shutdown would be more workable, but given the countries you’re interested in are probably more Internet-dependent than Zimbabwe something on the order of 0.1% GDP when averaged over a month still sounds plausible. For scale, the US federal government spends 1.2% GDP on education.

londons_explore 5y ago
It is common across lots of Europe for most or all shops to be closed on Sundays. The local population don't view that as odd or inconvenient - simply as 'the way things are'. As a visitor though, it means you need to plan ahead at least 24 hours - if you haven't bought food for sunday by midday saturday, there's a good chance you're going hungry. I would be very interested to know the macroeconomic impact of such a policy. Presumably labor running shops is reduced, but overall sales volume is not, which could outweigh the economic cost of inconvenience for the whole population...
- dantheman 5y ago
  The local population does view it as inconvenient and many wish that things would be open. Hell, normally at train stations there are some shops that are open and they are packed and cleaned out.
- ghaff 5y ago
  It was pretty normal in the US as well until a few decades ago. When I was an undergrad, very little in the city I lived was open on a Sunday. I remember it being a nuisance as an undergrad. I often had classes and other things to do during the week and often had sports on Saturday, so finding the time to do shopping runs during the week could be a pain. Historically, the reason was religious. But mom and pop stores also often opposed Sunday opening because large retailers were in a better position to just add incremental staff than they were.
- em-bee 5y ago
  most visitors don't cook for themselves though. restaurants are open, so only a few people will be inconvenienced by closed supermarkets. they are probably more inconvenienced by closed restaurants on mondays.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  >The local population don't view that as odd or inconvenient - simply as 'the way things are'. This used to be the way things were here in Denmark, and yes we thought it was inconvenient and stupid so we got rid of it (almost, there are a few days left in the year where it is still the case, and they are inconvinient and stupid).
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I don't know Danish holidays but you don't think stores should be mostly shut on major family holidays? In the US, I fully support most stores with some exceptions like maybe pharmacies being shut on at least Thanksgiving and Christmas.
- tester756 5y ago
  >The local population don't view that as odd or inconvenient - simply as 'the way things are'. Definitely not in Poland
- cheese_van 5y ago
  Overall sales volume may not change, but as a practical effect, Saturday shopping at supermarkets which are closed on Sundays can feel like shopping before a hurricane - at least in my experience in Germany. Carts line up ten deep, every aisle and register, in preparation for the impending disaster of Sunday's closure. And this happens every week. It's both bizarre and entertaining.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    i think that is not an issue of sunday closure, but simply a sideeffect of most everyone working monday to friday, and hence shopping on the weekend. in places where sundays are open the phenomenon is simply spread over two days. if you really want quiet shopping you need to go on a weekday morning while everyone else is at work.
ghaff 5y ago
That sounds about right. Depending upon what "shutting down the Internet" means. Does everyone need to now have a POTS landline again if they want to communicate with anyone on a Sunday? But, in general, some combination of alternative systems for critical purposes and lots of things, including most shopping and other services, simply shutting down for the day.
em-bee 5y ago
the reason for the closure is employment laws. employees simply have the right to not be forced to work on sundays or public holidays. if you run your own business you can work whenever you want. you just can't have employees work those days. restaurants, hospitals, transportation and similar industries get an exception to let employees work any day. restaurants usually close on mondays instead.
- mananaysiempre 5y ago
  It’s not that I’m objecting to the closure: it is certainly very inconvenient at first (I did go without food on quite a few Sundays when I couldn’t gather the determination to hike to a small shop), but not unworkable; it was simply a convenient comparison (if with much lighter economic consequences). I suspect the precise conditions vary by country, because I’ve certainly bought stuff from hired cashiers on Sundays, it’s only the supermarket chains that didn’t work. As to the rights argument, I tend to be wary of them in general, because any mention of a “right” tends to have an absolute or moral quality to it, and those are dangerous enough not to be used lightly or without justification. The goal of guaranteeing people a holiday is not itself bad (I’m just not ready to call it a “right”), but can be reached in quite a few other ways, such as (off the top of my head) prohibiting employment contracts that span a weekend boundary or just flat out prohibiting contracts that mandate work on holidays except for (strictly optional) overtime. Each of the options can have additional effects (such as shaping the weekend ambiance of your city in a certain way or making overtime de facto obligatory for low-paying jobs), and I’m not against deciding that any of them is best, only against not recognizing the existence of the choice. My concern is the intellectual honesty, not the employment politics.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    any mention of a “right” tends to have an absolute or moral quality to it and that seems to be exactly how the law is meant to be understood from the way it is written. the main problem with choice is that it is only the choice of the employer, not of the employee. and therefore having such a choice would be at the disadvantage of the employee. there is a balance to be made between the convenience for the consumer and that for the employees. as an employee, having the same day off as for everyone else is what makes it possible to join other activities. if people start getting random weekdays off then suddenly most of my friends will not share the same time off as me. that's not workable. therefore the more important question is, how many people get disadvantaged if we allow supermarkets to open on sundays, compared to how many get a benefit, and is it worth that tradeoff? obviously different countries feel different about that, but pretty much all of them still give everyone else the same weekend off instead of offering full flexibility for companies to choose what days to take off.

londons_explore 5y ago

It is common across lots of Europe for most or all shops to be closed on Sundays. The local population don't view that as odd or inconvenient - simply as 'the way things are'. As a visitor though, it means you need to plan ahead at least 24 hours - if you haven't bought food for sunday by midday saturday, there's a good chance you're going hungry. I would be very interested to know the macroeconomic impact of such a policy. Presumably labor running shops is reduced, but overall sales volume is not, which could outweigh the economic cost of inconvenience for the whole population...

dantheman 5y ago
The local population does view it as inconvenient and many wish that things would be open. Hell, normally at train stations there are some shops that are open and they are packed and cleaned out.
ghaff 5y ago
It was pretty normal in the US as well until a few decades ago. When I was an undergrad, very little in the city I lived was open on a Sunday. I remember it being a nuisance as an undergrad. I often had classes and other things to do during the week and often had sports on Saturday, so finding the time to do shopping runs during the week could be a pain. Historically, the reason was religious. But mom and pop stores also often opposed Sunday opening because large retailers were in a better position to just add incremental staff than they were.
em-bee 5y ago
most visitors don't cook for themselves though. restaurants are open, so only a few people will be inconvenienced by closed supermarkets. they are probably more inconvenienced by closed restaurants on mondays.
tomjen3 5y ago
>The local population don't view that as odd or inconvenient - simply as 'the way things are'. This used to be the way things were here in Denmark, and yes we thought it was inconvenient and stupid so we got rid of it (almost, there are a few days left in the year where it is still the case, and they are inconvinient and stupid).
- ghaff 5y ago
  I don't know Danish holidays but you don't think stores should be mostly shut on major family holidays? In the US, I fully support most stores with some exceptions like maybe pharmacies being shut on at least Thanksgiving and Christmas.
tester756 5y ago
>The local population don't view that as odd or inconvenient - simply as 'the way things are'. Definitely not in Poland
cheese_van 5y ago
Overall sales volume may not change, but as a practical effect, Saturday shopping at supermarkets which are closed on Sundays can feel like shopping before a hurricane - at least in my experience in Germany. Carts line up ten deep, every aisle and register, in preparation for the impending disaster of Sunday's closure. And this happens every week. It's both bizarre and entertaining.
- em-bee 5y ago
  i think that is not an issue of sunday closure, but simply a sideeffect of most everyone working monday to friday, and hence shopping on the weekend. in places where sundays are open the phenomenon is simply spread over two days. if you really want quiet shopping you need to go on a weekday morning while everyone else is at work.

ghaff 5y ago

That sounds about right. Depending upon what "shutting down the Internet" means. Does everyone need to now have a POTS landline again if they want to communicate with anyone on a Sunday? But, in general, some combination of alternative systems for critical purposes and lots of things, including most shopping and other services, simply shutting down for the day.

em-bee 5y ago

the reason for the closure is employment laws. employees simply have the right to not be forced to work on sundays or public holidays. if you run your own business you can work whenever you want. you just can't have employees work those days. restaurants, hospitals, transportation and similar industries get an exception to let employees work any day. restaurants usually close on mondays instead.

mananaysiempre 5y ago
It’s not that I’m objecting to the closure: it is certainly very inconvenient at first (I did go without food on quite a few Sundays when I couldn’t gather the determination to hike to a small shop), but not unworkable; it was simply a convenient comparison (if with much lighter economic consequences). I suspect the precise conditions vary by country, because I’ve certainly bought stuff from hired cashiers on Sundays, it’s only the supermarket chains that didn’t work. As to the rights argument, I tend to be wary of them in general, because any mention of a “right” tends to have an absolute or moral quality to it, and those are dangerous enough not to be used lightly or without justification. The goal of guaranteeing people a holiday is not itself bad (I’m just not ready to call it a “right”), but can be reached in quite a few other ways, such as (off the top of my head) prohibiting employment contracts that span a weekend boundary or just flat out prohibiting contracts that mandate work on holidays except for (strictly optional) overtime. Each of the options can have additional effects (such as shaping the weekend ambiance of your city in a certain way or making overtime de facto obligatory for low-paying jobs), and I’m not against deciding that any of them is best, only against not recognizing the existence of the choice. My concern is the intellectual honesty, not the employment politics.
- em-bee 5y ago
  any mention of a “right” tends to have an absolute or moral quality to it and that seems to be exactly how the law is meant to be understood from the way it is written. the main problem with choice is that it is only the choice of the employer, not of the employee. and therefore having such a choice would be at the disadvantage of the employee. there is a balance to be made between the convenience for the consumer and that for the employees. as an employee, having the same day off as for everyone else is what makes it possible to join other activities. if people start getting random weekdays off then suddenly most of my friends will not share the same time off as me. that's not workable. therefore the more important question is, how many people get disadvantaged if we allow supermarkets to open on sundays, compared to how many get a benefit, and is it worth that tradeoff? obviously different countries feel different about that, but pretty much all of them still give everyone else the same weekend off instead of offering full flexibility for companies to choose what days to take off.