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Now there’s no reason to be disappointed because China has shown they can do it on their own. We should expect a lot more impressive things coming out of China

Now there’s no reason to be disappointed because China has shown they can do it on their own. We should expect a lot more impressive things coming out of China. China built 22,000 miles of high-speed rail in 15 years, for example. AI, semiconductors, electric vehicles will be significant for them over the coming decade

roenxi 5y ago
The really remarkable thing about China is that given the unprecedented feats that go on there, I really don't feel confident anyone in the West understands why. I really wanted to write a post about this showing differences in regulation - but couldn't because the Chinese regulatory approach is too opaque to me. There seems to be remarkably little information on what the facts on the ground are. And given the rumoured Chinese programs of influencing foreign universities I do think it is questionable which channels of information are reliable vs tainted by their propaganda.
- fqye 5y ago
  Cherry picking and then overgeneralization are the two poisonous pills that are been fed to westerners about China. Western media pick all the authoritarian measures CCP did or is doing and blow them up and make them all about China. They ignored many things Chinese government (here most westerners or media couldn't tell the difference between Chinese administrative government and CCP and thought they were the same thing), and Chinese people did right in the past decades. I often say China today has been built on three things: 1. Equality between men and women. China did very well in this. There are lots of problems still obviously but in general women in China are quite equal to men. China has the most self-made female billionaires, maybe more than the rest of the world's combined. 2. Unleashed entrepreneurship. No need to say much about it here. 3. A very solid education system together with Han Chinese tradition of valuing education. Nine years of free and compulsory education for the entire nation before high school and many options for next level education.
  - icedistilled 5y ago
    From my understanding of Chinese culture from having a minor in chinese, I'm very skeptical of equality of women in china except as a CCP official "fact". And pointing to the absolute number of female billionaires should really be talking about rates not absolute numbers but that does not say anything about the average woman. Quick googles shows this: https://chinapower.csis.org/china-gender-inequality/ https://chinapower.csis.org/china-gender-inequality/ And why is the gender ratio so skewed? Gender selection of babies. That doesn't signal equality.
    - onethought 5y ago
      I think it’s a nuanced point. There is definitely a strong patriarchy in Chinese culture, and there was never anything like the Women’s liberation movement. But Women weren’t excluded from the workforce since the rise of communism… so it was more a slight head start on higher participation rates of employment.
      - russli1993 5y ago
        There was a huge women's liberation movement. The reason ccp got women on their side was by campaigning for equality between men and women. The slogan was "women can hold half of the sky". ccp pushed for women to get access in education, be free from their husbands, from traditional family roles. Why women can't do what a man can do? Why women can't learn how to read? Why women can't make decision in the house? Why women can't handle money in the house? Why women have to have their foot bound? Why women can't be industrialized workers (In 1950s, working as industrial worker was the cool job), Why women can't become soldiers? My grandma was born in 1931, she had her foot bounded, didn't learn how to read, and was arranged married to my grandpa. After the PRC was founded, she was in her 20s, a young woman, She joined ccp. And went around in her village to talk about women's rights. Why couldn't women do this, why men are so privilege etc. She got a lot of illiterate women to join a study club, learning how to read, telling the women how to standup, grow a spine, not be weak. I am surprised people didn't know there was a women's movement. If you look at the movement just by itself, the transformation of women's standing in the society and culture before and after is massive. Comparing across the global, it is still one of the largest transformations. But prephas it is all buried in the ccp, communism, and mao, all that bad rep. What actually caused, triggered, happened in the Chinese revolution between 1930 to 1960s is never talked about, never being looked at objectively. Only those who lived through that history, personally experienced it, knew the good, the bad, the legit and craziness. The world is not black and white. Things always happen for a reason. Before my grandma passed away, she had a portrait of mao in her home. And talked fondly of what ccp meant to her and the changes it brought to her life.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  > given the unprecedented feats that go on there, I really don't feel confident anyone in the West understands why. Oh, we do. 1. Chinese society is extremely competitive and hard working, and that work is cheaper to harness due to 996 and similar trends. It's no wonder they have more man-years to spend on developing. 2. They could copy a lot of Western technology due to outsourcing, a trend that only being reconsidered as of a few years ago. Because of that, they have the baseline of production lines, IP, and expert/process engineering knowledge. If they know how to replicate tech, they know how to improve it. 3. Their society is less squeamish about surveillance tech. I will speculate that this is part of the reason why they are better at AI and telecommunications: these areas are ones you want to have a really good grip on if you want to control the population. In a related point, I think that their military may be why they have more expertise in building affordable drones, because that accumulated knowledge trickles down. 4. The Chinese government is free of humanitarian considerations. This enables them to harness resources that the West is not keen on touching for fear of condemnation.
  - onethought 5y ago
    I don’t think a lot of these characterisations are fair. Chinese culture does elevate hard work, I think that could be a factor. 996 is a thing, but I’m not sure it exists across the entire workforce, it’s more a tech workforce culture, even then not ubiquitous. The copying trope is frustrating to keep seeing. Who did they copy the space station off? It’s just not true at all. Your point on privacy sounds closer to the truth. Culturally they view privacy differently to say American culture. I think this is more related to Chinese historically have always been socially/community minded, America by contrast has championed the individual. The humanitarian point is pure propaganda. The west does not fear condemnation… they literally invaded and occupied two countries, and committed war crimes in them (see Australia’s SAS involvement). Modern day Chinas closest resemblance to that is it’s forced take over off Hong Kong (20 years after it’s hand over, but it promised 50). It’s just not even in the same league of humanitarian breaches as “the west”
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      The humanitarian point is problematic, I will admit, but Chinese humanitarian violations are much more dangerous. They seek to set a precedent for an Orwellian nightmare across the whole world. As a citizen of an ex-communist country (who was thankfully born after that era), I am keenly aware of how dangerous an extensive surveillance, censorship and propaganda network can be. They stifle thought, and in China's case, I am afraid that this time it will work. They have the track record. The West (or let's face it, those keen to join in with the US militarily - and not all of the West participates) might have killed people, but China wants to kill independent thought. This is the one principle that I consider near-sacred. Without our free will*, what are we as a species? I know my view is extreme, but China is doing nothing to reassure the West that it's not actually planning on doing that. I did not mean to suggest that they are merely copying, on the contrary. My point is that they bootstrapped their own understanding and manufacturing of the technology, and then took it much further and in a different direction to the West. It's not a bad thing as such. It just means that they got the Western "tech tree" (for lack of a non-video game analogy), recognised the value of what they are holding, then made it their own and did honest work to build upon it. The same likely happened with the space station. Even if the current one is more Russian than Chinese in its design, you can be sure that this ratio will rapidly shrink in favour of Chinese designs and expertise. * Yes, I know there are debates about whether it's actually free. I'm talking about the apparent effect.
- rackjack 5y ago
  1. China's industrialization was and is powered by a staggering number of poor people searching for a better life. See also: Japan's industrial rise. 2. The government in China is extremely strong and centralized. The top officials want something, the lower officials do it. And since every Chinese business is a government business, any long-lasting Chinese company does what the government wants. So, the government can actually try to direct the country of China, compared to the USA for which conflict is the main point of the government and therefore centralized institutions (various companies, the military) emerge as the main powers. 3. China has a culture of ingratiating themselves (through feeding, using relatives, outright bribery) to people who can give them what they want. Apparently (I don't have a source), corruption can actually increase production because it greases wheels that were rusted by bureaucracy. I should also note that since China is the world's production center, they have all the manufacturing chains, so if you want to make something in China it is very easy compared to many other countries. With regards to regulation: IIRC, China has fewer regulations than America, but they are more "restrictive" (e.g. can't criticize the government), though citation needed.
  - onethought 5y ago
    This generally seems like western media talking points rather than facts. 1. All businesses are not state run or directed. 2. Your characterisation of Guanxi (relationships) is kind of the western negative interpretation of them. America has lobbyists literally bribing politicians… sorry I mean campaign donations. I’m not sure any of the above describe why China is pushing so far out in front in technology and development… it is more a list of things the west tries to tell itself so they don’t have to confront the fact that they are potentially being outpaced.
    - rackjack 5y ago
      1. Most/all businesses above a certain size are state run or directed. 2. Sorry if it came off that way. It's just that in my personal experience, China is much more dependent on this kind of ingratiation compared to America. (e.g. I've never had to give the people who reviewed my college application gifts to increase my chance of admission or anything like that.) From what I can see, the reason China is pulling out ahead is basically: - they have a humongous population, with a fair portion in poverty, giving easy access to productivity gains by lifting them out of it - they possess probably a majority of the industrial complex of the world - they have a reasonably competent government All of which breed technological development. You probably have different insights though. (Also, things like patent and technology copying, etc. probably help.)
me_me_me 5y ago
Same as Roman empire, impressive feats built of the backs of slaves
- Clewza313 5y ago
  ...what? There's plenty of reasons to criticize China, but they're not building the railways or space stations with prison labor.
  - project2501a 5y ago
    right, that's the US.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    There are so many slaves working in state owned factories it is hard to keep up: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8814835/Sydneys-new-trains-Uighur-slaves-forced-work-China.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8814835/Sydneys-new...
    - BelenusMordred 5y ago
      Those slaves in your link are building up Australia, not China.
- hulitu 5y ago
  Or like American empire: with cheap mexican labour.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Also still literal slavery, which is what American "private prisons" are.

roenxi 5y ago

The really remarkable thing about China is that given the unprecedented feats that go on there, I really don't feel confident anyone in the West understands why. I really wanted to write a post about this showing differences in regulation - but couldn't because the Chinese regulatory approach is too opaque to me. There seems to be remarkably little information on what the facts on the ground are. And given the rumoured Chinese programs of influencing foreign universities I do think it is questionable which channels of information are reliable vs tainted by their propaganda.

fqye 5y ago
Cherry picking and then overgeneralization are the two poisonous pills that are been fed to westerners about China. Western media pick all the authoritarian measures CCP did or is doing and blow them up and make them all about China. They ignored many things Chinese government (here most westerners or media couldn't tell the difference between Chinese administrative government and CCP and thought they were the same thing), and Chinese people did right in the past decades. I often say China today has been built on three things: 1. Equality between men and women. China did very well in this. There are lots of problems still obviously but in general women in China are quite equal to men. China has the most self-made female billionaires, maybe more than the rest of the world's combined. 2. Unleashed entrepreneurship. No need to say much about it here. 3. A very solid education system together with Han Chinese tradition of valuing education. Nine years of free and compulsory education for the entire nation before high school and many options for next level education.
- icedistilled 5y ago
  From my understanding of Chinese culture from having a minor in chinese, I'm very skeptical of equality of women in china except as a CCP official "fact". And pointing to the absolute number of female billionaires should really be talking about rates not absolute numbers but that does not say anything about the average woman. Quick googles shows this: https://chinapower.csis.org/china-gender-inequality/ https://chinapower.csis.org/china-gender-inequality/ And why is the gender ratio so skewed? Gender selection of babies. That doesn't signal equality.
  - onethought 5y ago
    I think it’s a nuanced point. There is definitely a strong patriarchy in Chinese culture, and there was never anything like the Women’s liberation movement. But Women weren’t excluded from the workforce since the rise of communism… so it was more a slight head start on higher participation rates of employment.
    - russli1993 5y ago
      There was a huge women's liberation movement. The reason ccp got women on their side was by campaigning for equality between men and women. The slogan was "women can hold half of the sky". ccp pushed for women to get access in education, be free from their husbands, from traditional family roles. Why women can't do what a man can do? Why women can't learn how to read? Why women can't make decision in the house? Why women can't handle money in the house? Why women have to have their foot bound? Why women can't be industrialized workers (In 1950s, working as industrial worker was the cool job), Why women can't become soldiers? My grandma was born in 1931, she had her foot bounded, didn't learn how to read, and was arranged married to my grandpa. After the PRC was founded, she was in her 20s, a young woman, She joined ccp. And went around in her village to talk about women's rights. Why couldn't women do this, why men are so privilege etc. She got a lot of illiterate women to join a study club, learning how to read, telling the women how to standup, grow a spine, not be weak. I am surprised people didn't know there was a women's movement. If you look at the movement just by itself, the transformation of women's standing in the society and culture before and after is massive. Comparing across the global, it is still one of the largest transformations. But prephas it is all buried in the ccp, communism, and mao, all that bad rep. What actually caused, triggered, happened in the Chinese revolution between 1930 to 1960s is never talked about, never being looked at objectively. Only those who lived through that history, personally experienced it, knew the good, the bad, the legit and craziness. The world is not black and white. Things always happen for a reason. Before my grandma passed away, she had a portrait of mao in her home. And talked fondly of what ccp meant to her and the changes it brought to her life.
selfhoster11 5y ago
> given the unprecedented feats that go on there, I really don't feel confident anyone in the West understands why. Oh, we do. 1. Chinese society is extremely competitive and hard working, and that work is cheaper to harness due to 996 and similar trends. It's no wonder they have more man-years to spend on developing. 2. They could copy a lot of Western technology due to outsourcing, a trend that only being reconsidered as of a few years ago. Because of that, they have the baseline of production lines, IP, and expert/process engineering knowledge. If they know how to replicate tech, they know how to improve it. 3. Their society is less squeamish about surveillance tech. I will speculate that this is part of the reason why they are better at AI and telecommunications: these areas are ones you want to have a really good grip on if you want to control the population. In a related point, I think that their military may be why they have more expertise in building affordable drones, because that accumulated knowledge trickles down. 4. The Chinese government is free of humanitarian considerations. This enables them to harness resources that the West is not keen on touching for fear of condemnation.
- onethought 5y ago
  I don’t think a lot of these characterisations are fair. Chinese culture does elevate hard work, I think that could be a factor. 996 is a thing, but I’m not sure it exists across the entire workforce, it’s more a tech workforce culture, even then not ubiquitous. The copying trope is frustrating to keep seeing. Who did they copy the space station off? It’s just not true at all. Your point on privacy sounds closer to the truth. Culturally they view privacy differently to say American culture. I think this is more related to Chinese historically have always been socially/community minded, America by contrast has championed the individual. The humanitarian point is pure propaganda. The west does not fear condemnation… they literally invaded and occupied two countries, and committed war crimes in them (see Australia’s SAS involvement). Modern day Chinas closest resemblance to that is it’s forced take over off Hong Kong (20 years after it’s hand over, but it promised 50). It’s just not even in the same league of humanitarian breaches as “the west”
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    The humanitarian point is problematic, I will admit, but Chinese humanitarian violations are much more dangerous. They seek to set a precedent for an Orwellian nightmare across the whole world. As a citizen of an ex-communist country (who was thankfully born after that era), I am keenly aware of how dangerous an extensive surveillance, censorship and propaganda network can be. They stifle thought, and in China's case, I am afraid that this time it will work. They have the track record. The West (or let's face it, those keen to join in with the US militarily - and not all of the West participates) might have killed people, but China wants to kill independent thought. This is the one principle that I consider near-sacred. Without our free will*, what are we as a species? I know my view is extreme, but China is doing nothing to reassure the West that it's not actually planning on doing that. I did not mean to suggest that they are merely copying, on the contrary. My point is that they bootstrapped their own understanding and manufacturing of the technology, and then took it much further and in a different direction to the West. It's not a bad thing as such. It just means that they got the Western "tech tree" (for lack of a non-video game analogy), recognised the value of what they are holding, then made it their own and did honest work to build upon it. The same likely happened with the space station. Even if the current one is more Russian than Chinese in its design, you can be sure that this ratio will rapidly shrink in favour of Chinese designs and expertise. * Yes, I know there are debates about whether it's actually free. I'm talking about the apparent effect.
rackjack 5y ago
1. China's industrialization was and is powered by a staggering number of poor people searching for a better life. See also: Japan's industrial rise. 2. The government in China is extremely strong and centralized. The top officials want something, the lower officials do it. And since every Chinese business is a government business, any long-lasting Chinese company does what the government wants. So, the government can actually try to direct the country of China, compared to the USA for which conflict is the main point of the government and therefore centralized institutions (various companies, the military) emerge as the main powers. 3. China has a culture of ingratiating themselves (through feeding, using relatives, outright bribery) to people who can give them what they want. Apparently (I don't have a source), corruption can actually increase production because it greases wheels that were rusted by bureaucracy. I should also note that since China is the world's production center, they have all the manufacturing chains, so if you want to make something in China it is very easy compared to many other countries. With regards to regulation: IIRC, China has fewer regulations than America, but they are more "restrictive" (e.g. can't criticize the government), though citation needed.
- onethought 5y ago
  This generally seems like western media talking points rather than facts. 1. All businesses are not state run or directed. 2. Your characterisation of Guanxi (relationships) is kind of the western negative interpretation of them. America has lobbyists literally bribing politicians… sorry I mean campaign donations. I’m not sure any of the above describe why China is pushing so far out in front in technology and development… it is more a list of things the west tries to tell itself so they don’t have to confront the fact that they are potentially being outpaced.
  - rackjack 5y ago
    1. Most/all businesses above a certain size are state run or directed. 2. Sorry if it came off that way. It's just that in my personal experience, China is much more dependent on this kind of ingratiation compared to America. (e.g. I've never had to give the people who reviewed my college application gifts to increase my chance of admission or anything like that.) From what I can see, the reason China is pulling out ahead is basically: - they have a humongous population, with a fair portion in poverty, giving easy access to productivity gains by lifting them out of it - they possess probably a majority of the industrial complex of the world - they have a reasonably competent government All of which breed technological development. You probably have different insights though. (Also, things like patent and technology copying, etc. probably help.)

me_me_me 5y ago

Same as Roman empire, impressive feats built of the backs of slaves

Clewza313 5y ago
...what? There's plenty of reasons to criticize China, but they're not building the railways or space stations with prison labor.
- project2501a 5y ago
  right, that's the US.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  There are so many slaves working in state owned factories it is hard to keep up: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8814835/Sydneys-new-trains-Uighur-slaves-forced-work-China.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8814835/Sydneys-new...
  - BelenusMordred 5y ago
    Those slaves in your link are building up Australia, not China.
hulitu 5y ago
Or like American empire: with cheap mexican labour.
- trasz 5y ago
  Also still literal slavery, which is what American "private prisons" are.