9 ms·

Regarding Perl, rather than removing it Apple actually upgraded it – from 5.28 to 5.30 – in Big Sur 11.3. I wasn't the only one briefly surprised and bitten by

Regarding Perl, rather than removing it Apple actually upgraded it – from 5.28 to 5.30 – in Big Sur 11.3. I wasn't the only one briefly surprised and bitten by it: • https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/10127#issuecomment-828121139 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/10127#issuecomment-8... • https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/11275 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/11275

kqr 5y ago
I doubt they'll be able to get rid of Perl any time soon. However, how come things break when Perl is upgraded? From what I've heard, Perl should be extremely backwards compatible. What am I missing?
- darrenf 5y ago
  For me, I had been too lazy to use Homebrew or Perlbrew since I don't develop locally per se, but I wanted `Perl::LanguageServer` for use with VS Code – which I'd installed via `local::lib` into `~/perl5/`. Post-upgrade either various modules weren't found (because they were installed in a versioned path), or they didn't compile because the XS components had been compiled against the prior version of Perl.
  - mst 5y ago
    Right, that's a risk you take doing local::lib against system perl. I will often use the system perl to bootstrap https://p3rl.org/Perl::Build https://p3rl.org/Perl::Build which makes building -one- perl for local use easier than perlbrew/etc. - and then https://p3rl.org/App::plx https://p3rl.org/App::plx for managing per project environments if I need that
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Enjoy the incompatible changes section from all Perl history, https://perldoc.perl.org/perl#History https://perldoc.perl.org/perl#History
  - anthk 5y ago
    That's bullshit. I've run exercises from the Orelly CD bookshelf more than a decade old and they just run as is.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      That just proves the point you got lucky with what language features were used on the exercises.
    - viraptor 5y ago
      Almost all exercises are minimal in nature. They will touch only small areas and (unless the book is based around advanced ideas) will not touch tricky / changing functionality. So I'm not surprised exercises still work.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      > That's bullshit. Dude, there is literally a link with references.
  - mst 5y ago
    That's a link to complete changelogs. Those aren't an "incompatible changes seection". perldelta covers bugfixes, feature additions etc.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      foreach entry in "https://perldoc.perl.org/perl#History" do open entry on browser search for "Incompatible Changes" section read section contents Writing a script in Perl to do the above is left as exercise to the reader. Hint, use LWP.
- rurban 5y ago
  They had to recompile their perl XS bindings, where esp. subversion is horrible to update.
Stranger43 5y ago
Perl is requires for apple to maintain their unix(tm) certification. And while they likely dont see it as core to what they want macos to become it would be an news story in the more sensationalist part of the IT press if they were to drop it. and big sur is still listed as certified https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/.
- tpush 5y ago
  Genuine question: is there anyone (corporate or not) that cares that macOS is a certified Unix?
  - tgragnato 5y ago
    Many care that macOS is Unix-like, I doubt anyone cares about the certification.
  - mekster 5y ago
    It's still impressive that powerful command line environment and the best GUI are offered in a same OS. Usually it's one or the other.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
      That's a hugely subjective comment and there are plenty of instances throughout history of a powerful CLI and sophisticated GUI being included as part of the same OS (Xerox Alto, BeOS, NeXT, Plan 9). Linux and *BSD's have plenty of popular WM / DEs too: personally I'd rate KDE above anything commercial I've used but that's my subjective preference. Heck these days even Windows can be argued as having a "powerful CLI" with both WSL and Powershell existing, and the Windows UI has it's fair share of fans (regardless of what our own personal preferences might be).
    - pornel 5y ago
      It used to be, but Apple seems to have lost interest in the Unix/Open Source side of macOS a decade ago. They've abandoned GNU tools after GPLv3 (2007), haven't added anything new, and just let the old stuff limp along until it's obsolete. Nowadays macOS needs something like Homebrew to fill the gaps. It's still slightly better than Windows + WSL, but Microsoft is catching up, while Apple seems to think that iPadOS is the future.
mrpippy 5y ago
Yes, but Perl still has a warning banner when you run it (at least in Big Sur and Monterey): % perl -de1 WARNING: This version of perl is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. In future versions of macOS the perl runtime will not be available by default, and may require you to install an additional package.

kqr 5y ago

I doubt they'll be able to get rid of Perl any time soon. However, how come things break when Perl is upgraded? From what I've heard, Perl should be extremely backwards compatible. What am I missing?

darrenf 5y ago
For me, I had been too lazy to use Homebrew or Perlbrew since I don't develop locally per se, but I wanted `Perl::LanguageServer` for use with VS Code – which I'd installed via `local::lib` into `~/perl5/`. Post-upgrade either various modules weren't found (because they were installed in a versioned path), or they didn't compile because the XS components had been compiled against the prior version of Perl.
- mst 5y ago
  Right, that's a risk you take doing local::lib against system perl. I will often use the system perl to bootstrap https://p3rl.org/Perl::Build https://p3rl.org/Perl::Build which makes building -one- perl for local use easier than perlbrew/etc. - and then https://p3rl.org/App::plx https://p3rl.org/App::plx for managing per project environments if I need that
pjmlp 5y ago
Enjoy the incompatible changes section from all Perl history, https://perldoc.perl.org/perl#History https://perldoc.perl.org/perl#History
- anthk 5y ago
  That's bullshit. I've run exercises from the Orelly CD bookshelf more than a decade old and they just run as is.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    That just proves the point you got lucky with what language features were used on the exercises.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    Almost all exercises are minimal in nature. They will touch only small areas and (unless the book is based around advanced ideas) will not touch tricky / changing functionality. So I'm not surprised exercises still work.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    > That's bullshit. Dude, there is literally a link with references.
- mst 5y ago
  That's a link to complete changelogs. Those aren't an "incompatible changes seection". perldelta covers bugfixes, feature additions etc.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    foreach entry in "https://perldoc.perl.org/perl#History" do open entry on browser search for "Incompatible Changes" section read section contents Writing a script in Perl to do the above is left as exercise to the reader. Hint, use LWP.
rurban 5y ago
They had to recompile their perl XS bindings, where esp. subversion is horrible to update.

Stranger43 5y ago

Perl is requires for apple to maintain their unix(tm) certification. And while they likely dont see it as core to what they want macos to become it would be an news story in the more sensationalist part of the IT press if they were to drop it. and big sur is still listed as certified https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/.

tpush 5y ago
Genuine question: is there anyone (corporate or not) that cares that macOS is a certified Unix?
- tgragnato 5y ago
  Many care that macOS is Unix-like, I doubt anyone cares about the certification.
- mekster 5y ago
  It's still impressive that powerful command line environment and the best GUI are offered in a same OS. Usually it's one or the other.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    That's a hugely subjective comment and there are plenty of instances throughout history of a powerful CLI and sophisticated GUI being included as part of the same OS (Xerox Alto, BeOS, NeXT, Plan 9). Linux and *BSD's have plenty of popular WM / DEs too: personally I'd rate KDE above anything commercial I've used but that's my subjective preference. Heck these days even Windows can be argued as having a "powerful CLI" with both WSL and Powershell existing, and the Windows UI has it's fair share of fans (regardless of what our own personal preferences might be).
  - pornel 5y ago
    It used to be, but Apple seems to have lost interest in the Unix/Open Source side of macOS a decade ago. They've abandoned GNU tools after GPLv3 (2007), haven't added anything new, and just let the old stuff limp along until it's obsolete. Nowadays macOS needs something like Homebrew to fill the gaps. It's still slightly better than Windows + WSL, but Microsoft is catching up, while Apple seems to think that iPadOS is the future.

mrpippy 5y ago

Yes, but Perl still has a warning banner when you run it (at least in Big Sur and Monterey): % perl -de1 WARNING: This version of perl is included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. In future versions of macOS the perl runtime will not be available by default, and may require you to install an additional package.