6 ms·

> And the use of the term ‘expedition’ carries orientalist associations ?

na85 5y ago
Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere during the Soviet period and the 19th century. The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West, when in reality the "orient" was just a place populated by regular people with their own culture to be sure but perhaps not so different from small-town USA (or wherever) as one might think. What I suppose they're driving at when they say that "expedition" carries "orientalist associations" is that describing a trip to post-Soviet states in today's world as "an expedition" is reductionist in that it implies those places are akin to the savage frontier into which Europeans and Americans ventured in search of land to appropriate from the indigenous populations. Now, I'm sympathetic to the idea that a Dagestan native might take umbrage at a trip to their home being referred to as an expedition, as if Dagestan is wild and untamed frontier ripe for staking land claims and colonization. It's somebody's home, hypothetically. But considering the author is a Russian who probably speaks English as an nth language, I'm not so sure that I'd agree with the TFArticle's characterization of the term "expedition". I speak French and my command of the vocabulary is not nearly as good as in English for me. Words have subtext and nuance, and unless you master a language you're bound to choose inapt words that might give off the wrong connotation inadvertently. It reads like virtue-signalling to me on the part of Valeria Costa-Kostritsky.
- qqtt 5y ago
  > Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere Somewhat ironically, the "Orientalism" you are referring to is an American-centric interpretation, which doesn't really have global acceptance as a theory. Orientalism was attempted to be redefined single handedly redefined in 1978 by an American professor (Edward Said with a book of the same name). Notably, America is pretty unique in considering "oriental" an offensive term - Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations.
  - ibotty 5y ago
    > Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations. You are wrong, some do, some don't. I would debate that its reduction is usage is because of the negative connotations, but let's leave it at that. Edward Said has been hugely influential also in Europe's academia and intellectual discourse. I would also be astonished if there had been no influence in "the orient".
    - esyir 5y ago
      I'll go one step further against this idea that "oriental" is some offensive term. Where I am, smack dab in Asia, oriental is used without an issue, being included in the names of buildings and companies. I'm betting that the "offensiveness" of the term, if it ever takes root here, would likely be a invasive American import than homegrown.
      - blacktriangle 5y ago
        America used to export culture, now we just export outrage and microagressions.
  - tpm 5y ago
    > Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations. that's not true - a friend of mine, an European academic in (east) Asian studies - told me the whole academic field in Europe considers the term outdated and incorrect.
- shakow 5y ago
  > The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West That's an interpretation I never heard. Here in France (and in Europe as far as I know), Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. To make a crude comparison, it would be much closer to “weeaboos” (albeit larger in scope, ranging from Maghreb to Afghanistan) than to the White Man Burden. Although there were a lot of cliches born there (the Turkish harems, the Arabian cheikhs, the wild and free Bedouins, the proud and fierce Afghan warrior, etc.), there was definitely no feeling of need of settling or taming, as the whole point was the fascination for these cultures that hadn't really seeped through Europe until then.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    Considering that all of Africa and parts of the Middle East were partitioned and colonised by the European powers in the late 19th century, and India had been colonised much earlier, and China had been pacified by the Opium Wars (and still hasn't forgiven the UK for those) I'm not sure how you can say there was no interest in settling or taming. The artistic cliches were froth that made these distant locations somewhat comprehensible to home audiences. Not incidentally, they also sold them as investment opportunities and potential locations for personal commercial and military adventures - and occasionally artistic and erotic adventures too.
    - shakow 5y ago
      Because you're conflating a geopolitical current (colonialism & imperialism) with an artistic one (orientalism) -- in fact, the artistic current actually predates colonialism in the concerned geographical regions, with e.g. Ottoman art becoming fashionable in the 18th century or Antique Egypt fascinating Paris after Napoleon's expedition in the early 19th century. Just like nowadays, exhibiting a taste for Vietnamese or Bengali culture doesn't imply that you are a staunch supporter of children's slavery, 19th century people fantasizing about lascivious odalisques and fierce Cheikhs or Byron writing about Transoxania doesn't have much to do with the Concessions harbours.

na85 5y ago

Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere during the Soviet period and the 19th century. The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West, when in reality the "orient" was just a place populated by regular people with their own culture to be sure but perhaps not so different from small-town USA (or wherever) as one might think. What I suppose they're driving at when they say that "expedition" carries "orientalist associations" is that describing a trip to post-Soviet states in today's world as "an expedition" is reductionist in that it implies those places are akin to the savage frontier into which Europeans and Americans ventured in search of land to appropriate from the indigenous populations. Now, I'm sympathetic to the idea that a Dagestan native might take umbrage at a trip to their home being referred to as an expedition, as if Dagestan is wild and untamed frontier ripe for staking land claims and colonization. It's somebody's home, hypothetically. But considering the author is a Russian who probably speaks English as an nth language, I'm not so sure that I'd agree with the TFArticle's characterization of the term "expedition". I speak French and my command of the vocabulary is not nearly as good as in English for me. Words have subtext and nuance, and unless you master a language you're bound to choose inapt words that might give off the wrong connotation inadvertently. It reads like virtue-signalling to me on the part of Valeria Costa-Kostritsky.

qqtt 5y ago
> Orientalism is the term coined for the Euro- or America-centric views of the Eastern Hemisphere Somewhat ironically, the "Orientalism" you are referring to is an American-centric interpretation, which doesn't really have global acceptance as a theory. Orientalism was attempted to be redefined single handedly redefined in 1978 by an American professor (Edward Said with a book of the same name). Notably, America is pretty unique in considering "oriental" an offensive term - Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations.
- ibotty 5y ago
  > Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations. You are wrong, some do, some don't. I would debate that its reduction is usage is because of the negative connotations, but let's leave it at that. Edward Said has been hugely influential also in Europe's academia and intellectual discourse. I would also be astonished if there had been no influence in "the orient".
  - esyir 5y ago
    I'll go one step further against this idea that "oriental" is some offensive term. Where I am, smack dab in Asia, oriental is used without an issue, being included in the names of buildings and companies. I'm betting that the "offensiveness" of the term, if it ever takes root here, would likely be a invasive American import than homegrown.
    - blacktriangle 5y ago
      America used to export culture, now we just export outrage and microagressions.
- tpm 5y ago
  > Europe & elsewhere use the term freely without any negative connotations. that's not true - a friend of mine, an European academic in (east) Asian studies - told me the whole academic field in Europe considers the term outdated and incorrect.
shakow 5y ago
> The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West That's an interpretation I never heard. Here in France (and in Europe as far as I know), Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. To make a crude comparison, it would be much closer to “weeaboos” (albeit larger in scope, ranging from Maghreb to Afghanistan) than to the White Man Burden. Although there were a lot of cliches born there (the Turkish harems, the Arabian cheikhs, the wild and free Bedouins, the proud and fierce Afghan warrior, etc.), there was definitely no feeling of need of settling or taming, as the whole point was the fascination for these cultures that hadn't really seeped through Europe until then.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  Considering that all of Africa and parts of the Middle East were partitioned and colonised by the European powers in the late 19th century, and India had been colonised much earlier, and China had been pacified by the Opium Wars (and still hasn't forgiven the UK for those) I'm not sure how you can say there was no interest in settling or taming. The artistic cliches were froth that made these distant locations somewhat comprehensible to home audiences. Not incidentally, they also sold them as investment opportunities and potential locations for personal commercial and military adventures - and occasionally artistic and erotic adventures too.
  - shakow 5y ago
    Because you're conflating a geopolitical current (colonialism & imperialism) with an artistic one (orientalism) -- in fact, the artistic current actually predates colonialism in the concerned geographical regions, with e.g. Ottoman art becoming fashionable in the 18th century or Antique Egypt fascinating Paris after Napoleon's expedition in the early 19th century. Just like nowadays, exhibiting a taste for Vietnamese or Bengali culture doesn't imply that you are a staunch supporter of children's slavery, 19th century people fantasizing about lascivious odalisques and fierce Cheikhs or Byron writing about Transoxania doesn't have much to do with the Concessions harbours.