8 ms·

Like China, there is really nothing… Dissuading murderous governments like Saudi Arabia from changing their ways. They can execute children, they can harvest or

Like China, there is really nothing… Dissuading murderous governments like Saudi Arabia from changing their ways. They can execute children, they can harvest organs, in prison huge numbers of religious minorities, and really there’s absolutely nothing any of us can do about it. Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done.

scientist9113 5y ago
That's not true at all. We buy and use their oil, we supply them weapons etc. All that we need to do is to make sure that it's clear to our politician that such things matter to Americans. I'm just not sure that's the case though.
- underseacables 5y ago
  You make an excellent point: What WOULD happen if we stopped buying oil from Saudi Arabia, and slapped an 80% tariff on all Chinese made goods? Would these regimes change their ways, or begin a major pivot away from America? I’ve always been fascinated by the friendship between China and the Middle East. No pesky human rights to worry about, just the flow of oil and money is opposite directions.
  - gerash 5y ago
    Are you implying that US worries about human rights when Saudi Arabia is the ally?
  - awb 5y ago
    There are countless ways for those countries to retaliate: war, terrorism, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, corporate or political espionage, releasing state secrets, stoking geopolitical tensions, creating anti-US coalitions, etc. Not saying that punitive actions can’t be effective, but the US is still vulnerable to some forms of retaliation, especially if get initial action is as sudden and dramatic as the ones you describe.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      > war, terrorism, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, corporate or political espionage, releasing state secrets, stoking geopolitical tensions, creating anti-US coalitions, etc. You just listed every thing what The New Axis has done in the previous decade.
  - peytn 5y ago
    Saudi oil: nothing would happen. It’s a commodity. They’d sell their oil at market price minus epsilon. Regime would be fine. China tariff: they’d devalue the yuan. They already have capital controls that keep money from leaving the country. Regime would be fine. At the end of the day, might as well trade with them for our own benefit.
  - nyokodo 5y ago
    > Would these regimes change their ways, or begin a major pivot away from America? Pivot to whom? China needs a large population of consumers. Besides the US they have their choice of countries full of young poor people, countries full of thrifty old people, and countries with consumers that are too small. They could drop the US if they’re willing to have a massive financial contraction. The US holds the ultimate trump card too, we need them less and less, and we can remove all shipping security guarantees for Chinese goods and watch their international trade collapse. It’s hard to fund influence campaigns when your economic house of cards crumbles around you.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      The China envisioned in Made in China 2025 already has access to a large population of consumers: the Chinese population. And the whole point of the Belt and Road initiative and their aircraft carrier program is to remove dependence on the US backed shipping security apparatus.
      - nyokodo 5y ago
        > The China envisioned in Made in China 2025 already has access to a large population of consumers: the Chinese population. Not for long. The Chinese population is aging incredibly rapidly. Younger Chinese who could contribute to a stable consumer base will instead be crushed attempting to support the accelerating number in older generations retiring.
        monocasa 5y ago
        Older Chinese are still consumers, they'll bog down younger Chinese no more than US consumers will. It's not like US consumers are providing anything other than capital and a market as it stands. And a transition to higher end products and associated manufacturing means less low end workers (and less workers overall) needed to make that happen.
        nyokodo 5y ago
- hulitu 5y ago
  You no underestand. They are our friends.
- corty 5y ago
  Won't work, Afghanistan has no (legal) exports to speak of, and still there is the taliban gaining power. Iran and North Korea are hindered by very strict sanctions, yet their governments aren't any better. War might work, if at least some larger part of the population wants change, like in Iraq. Sanctions didn't ever work.
  - farseer 5y ago
    Sanctions on Iraq did work, Saddam was contained. Might even have been swept away in the Arab spring later on. Unfortunately a bunch of religious fanatics invaded Iraq using a false pretense because God wanted them to. These fanatics didn't believe in diplomacy. After overthrowing the Taliban and the Baathists, they spurned all hopes of a negotiated peace and tried to wipe their foes off the map and remake the region in their own image. The defeated Baathist army was dismantled, the Taliban remnants hunted instead of negotiated with. Even the spurned Iraninans would have de-denuclearized out of fear in 2003 but why settle for that when you can have it all with regime change? And now here we are debating the evil of these once vanquished foes...
    - corty 5y ago
      Saddam Hussein was contained regarding neighboring states. As to atrocities towards the Iraqi people, sanctions and loosing the wars just put those into full gear, because Hussein had to quell the brewing rebellion. So you are right, sanctions may work in preventing a war. But they do nothing beneficial for the internal workings of a country, like executing teens for protesting in the OP.
- starik36 5y ago
  > We buy and use their oil We actually buy a very small amount these days. US is a net exporter. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSSA2&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
  - sschueller 5y ago
    It's not about the oil being purchased by the US but that most oil is traded in USD and not some other currency.
    - nl 5y ago
      That seems an entirely different thing. Most international trade is denominated in USD, often even when trade is between two non-US companies.
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > We buy and use their oil Although that is true, the US imports less and less oil from Saudi. In fact, it’s been dropping steeply since shale oil became cheaper in 2014 and we haven’t imported less from Saudi since the oil glut of the mid-1980s.[1] I don’t think the US stopping Saudi oil imports is going to worry them as China is their major market now and China is another repressive regime. We should stop protecting their shipping though as we do for the entire globe still. 1: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSSA2&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
  - adaml_623 5y ago
    How much oil does the US buy from Iran? I think actual embargoes make a difference.
    - nyokodo 5y ago
      > How much oil does the US buy from Iran? I think actual embargoes make a difference. Iran is still a brutal repressive regime. Sanctions make it more difficult for Iran to gain and project power but don’t stop them from committing horrific crimes against minorities and generally innocent Iranians.
      - srean 5y ago
        > Iran is still a brutal repressive regime Whatever it is now, it has been brought in to existence by US (CIA) intervention
        mc32 5y ago
        I think that’s simplistic. The CIA (not saying they did stand up things) tried the opposite and supported a failing regime that was more open but did little for the lower classes so the revolutionaries came in took over and showed the previous regime how to really be tyrannical. Most Iranians would depose the current leadership if they had free elections, so it’s not as if the population wants them, but like China, and North Korea only one party can have legitimate candidates and they have the guns.
setum 5y ago
> in prison huge numbers of 𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚕̶𝚒̶𝚐̶𝚒̶𝚘̶𝚞̶𝚜̶ minorities this reminds me of another country, takes pride in its democracy, where citizens love marijuana, government don’t. different places, different basis for prosecution.
- ohlookabird 5y ago
  indeed, and it looks like neither thinks having a death penalty is somehow problematic...
  - ReptileMan 5y ago
    We don't have exile, no penal colonies, no ostracism, no corporal punishment and life term prison sentences are at least as cruel and more expensive than execution. Unfortunately there are no cheap and efficient options for removing someone permanently from society right now outside of death penalty. Outlawing people may work, but for various reasons it is non starter. You cannot lift protection from the law nowadays from someone.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Also reminds me of certain country that indiscriminately murders innocent non-citizens around the world... Truly different places, different justifications...
ajmurmann 5y ago
In addition to what others called out, we could also open our borders and allow people from these places to come and live with us instead. Foot voting is very powerful and even if just a small percentage leaves these countries that can become a real problem for those governments and create pressure to change.
- vl 5y ago
  Probably millions left Russia after Iron Curtain fell and nothing really changed there.
baybal2 5y ago
> Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done. Embargo them to the neck, like Japan before WW2.
bumbada 5y ago
Given the fact that Saudi Arabia is an US' puppet regime, they(the US) could do everything they want with it. If you go to Saudi Arabia you will see that Arabia is made of hundreds of different loosely integrated ethnic groups, Saudis are just one of them that took the power in the country. Removing the Saudis from power is extremely simple, they can just support other ethnic groups. The problem is that you never know if what is created is much worse than what it is there today, just like what happened in Egypt choosing the Muslim Brotherhood or in Libya, unstabilizing all the north of Africa. China is a totally different thing. China is a gigantic country, almost a continent with more than 1200 million people, a big army,powerful industry, natural defenses and ethnically dominated by Han people.
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > natural defenses Not really. While China improved its “natural defenses” by very unnaturally invading and subjugating Tibet it is still ringed by hostile countries or, in the case of Russia and North Korea, highly temperamental countries with very few natural barriers apart from the Himalayas which only covers one side. This is the reason the Great Wall was built.
- Gibbon1 5y ago
  > Saudi Arabia is an US' puppet regime The opposite is true here.
HappyDreamer 5y ago
> Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done Here are some things that can be done: - Stop exporting weapons and military and police equipment. - Support women and them starting their own businesses, so they'll make money and get more influence in society. Women are, when looking at large numbers of people, more often altruistic minded (compared to men) and less likely to be psychopaths. - Education, provide for free over the Internet. - Support pro democracy organizations. But I guess one would need to be careful, if doing this, so people won't just start protesting on the street and get shot down, for example see in Iran recently (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-idUSKBN1XT0X7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-id...).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
elevenoh 5y ago
Benevolent AI-guided Saudi populous uprising.
BLanen 5y ago
Hackernews, so of course China has to be brought up.
- LightG 5y ago
  Horrible governments who do horrible things, so of course China has to be brought up.
bagacrap 5y ago
The USA has no problem applying non violent pressure to Russia and Iran to change their ways. Saudi Arabia just gets a free pass because their collaboration is important to America's strategic interests.

scientist9113 5y ago

That's not true at all. We buy and use their oil, we supply them weapons etc. All that we need to do is to make sure that it's clear to our politician that such things matter to Americans. I'm just not sure that's the case though.

underseacables 5y ago
You make an excellent point: What WOULD happen if we stopped buying oil from Saudi Arabia, and slapped an 80% tariff on all Chinese made goods? Would these regimes change their ways, or begin a major pivot away from America? I’ve always been fascinated by the friendship between China and the Middle East. No pesky human rights to worry about, just the flow of oil and money is opposite directions.
- gerash 5y ago
  Are you implying that US worries about human rights when Saudi Arabia is the ally?
- awb 5y ago
  There are countless ways for those countries to retaliate: war, terrorism, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, corporate or political espionage, releasing state secrets, stoking geopolitical tensions, creating anti-US coalitions, etc. Not saying that punitive actions can’t be effective, but the US is still vulnerable to some forms of retaliation, especially if get initial action is as sudden and dramatic as the ones you describe.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > war, terrorism, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, corporate or political espionage, releasing state secrets, stoking geopolitical tensions, creating anti-US coalitions, etc. You just listed every thing what The New Axis has done in the previous decade.
- peytn 5y ago
  Saudi oil: nothing would happen. It’s a commodity. They’d sell their oil at market price minus epsilon. Regime would be fine. China tariff: they’d devalue the yuan. They already have capital controls that keep money from leaving the country. Regime would be fine. At the end of the day, might as well trade with them for our own benefit.
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > Would these regimes change their ways, or begin a major pivot away from America? Pivot to whom? China needs a large population of consumers. Besides the US they have their choice of countries full of young poor people, countries full of thrifty old people, and countries with consumers that are too small. They could drop the US if they’re willing to have a massive financial contraction. The US holds the ultimate trump card too, we need them less and less, and we can remove all shipping security guarantees for Chinese goods and watch their international trade collapse. It’s hard to fund influence campaigns when your economic house of cards crumbles around you.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    The China envisioned in Made in China 2025 already has access to a large population of consumers: the Chinese population. And the whole point of the Belt and Road initiative and their aircraft carrier program is to remove dependence on the US backed shipping security apparatus.
    - nyokodo 5y ago
      > The China envisioned in Made in China 2025 already has access to a large population of consumers: the Chinese population. Not for long. The Chinese population is aging incredibly rapidly. Younger Chinese who could contribute to a stable consumer base will instead be crushed attempting to support the accelerating number in older generations retiring.
      - monocasa 5y ago
        Older Chinese are still consumers, they'll bog down younger Chinese no more than US consumers will. It's not like US consumers are providing anything other than capital and a market as it stands. And a transition to higher end products and associated manufacturing means less low end workers (and less workers overall) needed to make that happen.
        nyokodo 5y ago
hulitu 5y ago
You no underestand. They are our friends.
corty 5y ago
Won't work, Afghanistan has no (legal) exports to speak of, and still there is the taliban gaining power. Iran and North Korea are hindered by very strict sanctions, yet their governments aren't any better. War might work, if at least some larger part of the population wants change, like in Iraq. Sanctions didn't ever work.
- farseer 5y ago
  Sanctions on Iraq did work, Saddam was contained. Might even have been swept away in the Arab spring later on. Unfortunately a bunch of religious fanatics invaded Iraq using a false pretense because God wanted them to. These fanatics didn't believe in diplomacy. After overthrowing the Taliban and the Baathists, they spurned all hopes of a negotiated peace and tried to wipe their foes off the map and remake the region in their own image. The defeated Baathist army was dismantled, the Taliban remnants hunted instead of negotiated with. Even the spurned Iraninans would have de-denuclearized out of fear in 2003 but why settle for that when you can have it all with regime change? And now here we are debating the evil of these once vanquished foes...
  - corty 5y ago
    Saddam Hussein was contained regarding neighboring states. As to atrocities towards the Iraqi people, sanctions and loosing the wars just put those into full gear, because Hussein had to quell the brewing rebellion. So you are right, sanctions may work in preventing a war. But they do nothing beneficial for the internal workings of a country, like executing teens for protesting in the OP.
starik36 5y ago
> We buy and use their oil We actually buy a very small amount these days. US is a net exporter. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSSA2&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
- sschueller 5y ago
  It's not about the oil being purchased by the US but that most oil is traded in USD and not some other currency.
  - nl 5y ago
    That seems an entirely different thing. Most international trade is denominated in USD, often even when trade is between two non-US companies.
nyokodo 5y ago
> We buy and use their oil Although that is true, the US imports less and less oil from Saudi. In fact, it’s been dropping steeply since shale oil became cheaper in 2014 and we haven’t imported less from Saudi since the oil glut of the mid-1980s.[1] I don’t think the US stopping Saudi oil imports is going to worry them as China is their major market now and China is another repressive regime. We should stop protecting their shipping though as we do for the entire globe still. 1: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSSA2&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
- adaml_623 5y ago
  How much oil does the US buy from Iran? I think actual embargoes make a difference.
  - nyokodo 5y ago
    > How much oil does the US buy from Iran? I think actual embargoes make a difference. Iran is still a brutal repressive regime. Sanctions make it more difficult for Iran to gain and project power but don’t stop them from committing horrific crimes against minorities and generally innocent Iranians.
    - srean 5y ago
      > Iran is still a brutal repressive regime Whatever it is now, it has been brought in to existence by US (CIA) intervention
      - mc32 5y ago
        I think that’s simplistic. The CIA (not saying they did stand up things) tried the opposite and supported a failing regime that was more open but did little for the lower classes so the revolutionaries came in took over and showed the previous regime how to really be tyrannical. Most Iranians would depose the current leadership if they had free elections, so it’s not as if the population wants them, but like China, and North Korea only one party can have legitimate candidates and they have the guns.

setum 5y ago

> in prison huge numbers of 𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚕̶𝚒̶𝚐̶𝚒̶𝚘̶𝚞̶𝚜̶ minorities this reminds me of another country, takes pride in its democracy, where citizens love marijuana, government don’t. different places, different basis for prosecution.

ohlookabird 5y ago
indeed, and it looks like neither thinks having a death penalty is somehow problematic...
- ReptileMan 5y ago
  We don't have exile, no penal colonies, no ostracism, no corporal punishment and life term prison sentences are at least as cruel and more expensive than execution. Unfortunately there are no cheap and efficient options for removing someone permanently from society right now outside of death penalty. Outlawing people may work, but for various reasons it is non starter. You cannot lift protection from the law nowadays from someone.
Ekaros 5y ago
Also reminds me of certain country that indiscriminately murders innocent non-citizens around the world... Truly different places, different justifications...

ajmurmann 5y ago

In addition to what others called out, we could also open our borders and allow people from these places to come and live with us instead. Foot voting is very powerful and even if just a small percentage leaves these countries that can become a real problem for those governments and create pressure to change.

vl 5y ago
Probably millions left Russia after Iron Curtain fell and nothing really changed there.

baybal2 5y ago

> Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done. Embargo them to the neck, like Japan before WW2.

bumbada 5y ago

Given the fact that Saudi Arabia is an US' puppet regime, they(the US) could do everything they want with it. If you go to Saudi Arabia you will see that Arabia is made of hundreds of different loosely integrated ethnic groups, Saudis are just one of them that took the power in the country. Removing the Saudis from power is extremely simple, they can just support other ethnic groups. The problem is that you never know if what is created is much worse than what it is there today, just like what happened in Egypt choosing the Muslim Brotherhood or in Libya, unstabilizing all the north of Africa. China is a totally different thing. China is a gigantic country, almost a continent with more than 1200 million people, a big army,powerful industry, natural defenses and ethnically dominated by Han people.

nyokodo 5y ago
> natural defenses Not really. While China improved its “natural defenses” by very unnaturally invading and subjugating Tibet it is still ringed by hostile countries or, in the case of Russia and North Korea, highly temperamental countries with very few natural barriers apart from the Himalayas which only covers one side. This is the reason the Great Wall was built.
Gibbon1 5y ago
> Saudi Arabia is an US' puppet regime The opposite is true here.

HappyDreamer 5y ago

> Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done Here are some things that can be done: - Stop exporting weapons and military and police equipment. - Support women and them starting their own businesses, so they'll make money and get more influence in society. Women are, when looking at large numbers of people, more often altruistic minded (compared to men) and less likely to be psychopaths. - Education, provide for free over the Internet. - Support pro democracy organizations. But I guess one would need to be careful, if doing this, so people won't just start protesting on the street and get shot down, for example see in Iran recently (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-idUSKBN1XT0X7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-id...).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

elevenoh 5y ago

Benevolent AI-guided Saudi populous uprising.

BLanen 5y ago

Hackernews, so of course China has to be brought up.

LightG 5y ago
Horrible governments who do horrible things, so of course China has to be brought up.

bagacrap 5y ago

The USA has no problem applying non violent pressure to Russia and Iran to change their ways. Saudi Arabia just gets a free pass because their collaboration is important to America's strategic interests.