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I feel like if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Software productivity is exclusively driven by good devs who are properly mo

I feel like if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Software productivity is exclusively driven by good devs who are properly motivated. If you want to succeed, maximize their creativity and peace of mind. The 5 day work week is diametrically opposed to that and one of the reasons devs burn out so quickly. They’re being treated like manual labor in a creative field.

missedthecue 5y ago
It's not that you need all hands on deck 100% of the time. It's that having people take random days off week to week is very sub-optimal and youre liable to get outcompeted. You're no longer a well oiled machine at that point, but more of a janky chaotic mess. Consistency is good.
- luffapi 5y ago
  That’s not true at all. Look at open source. Some of the most important software in the world was written when the devs were motivated to write it, not 9-5 m-f.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    An open source project isn't the same thing as a several thousand person corporation with not only engineers, but business analysts, legal departments, accounting, sales, client services, human resources, IT, management, and so on and so forth. Each has deadlines they have to abide by, some set by their bosses, some set by the government, and others implicitly imposed by competitors. That's much different than a pet project that's being given away for free.
    - zingar 5y ago
      I don't think gp was unaware of those conditions at corporates, but rather suggests that the layers of management, meetings and deadlines make for worse software. Also remember that opens source includes things like the Linux kernel. That "pet" project underpins almost all software that the hypothetical corporate uses and makes, and does it without the meetings and the deadlines.
  - regularfry 5y ago
    Bear in mind that the modal Linux kernel dev is closer to a cubicle dweller than a basement dweller. For large, important projects it absolutely is 9-5.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Most of the open source developers who created 'most important software in the world' were paid to do it. There are very few oss projects that were developed only by volunteers.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      I think Linus and 90% of GitHub projects would disagree.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        You should probably do some research about Linus net worth. He has been employed to work on kernel for a few decades. And if we are talking about some of the most important software projects, approx. zero of them are run by hobbyists. Some niche aplications - sure. But not the most important pieces. (Disclosure: for the last few years I employ 4-8 people to work on GNU GPL licensed products, so I know a thing or two about how it works)
        luffapi 5y ago
        Do you really think Linus works 9-5? I assure you he doesn’t. I’ve also developed and led teams that developed many OSS projects and very successful consumer applications. Not once did I micromanage my team’s working hours. They make their own schedules as people know best when they can produce good output.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Linus is very disciplined, so yeah, he likely does work 9-5, like most organized people with a family do. As for 'micromanaging working hours', it's not a question of micromanagement, but of communication. It is far easier for everyone to work in the same rythm, knowing that you aren't distracting a person you need to contact from his private life.
  - ChrisLomont 5y ago
    The biggest and widest used open source projects have billions in corporate investment in them. None were simply the product of devs working in off hours for free for fun.
fuzzfactor 5y ago
>if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Seriously. Especially when you run 24/7. Then you know it's really bad when a 24/7 operation "rises" to a challenge by calling all hands on deck. And at the same time battle stations because they don't even know the difference.
alkonaut 5y ago
Being negatively affected by lack of sync (days off, different time zones) isn’t the same as needing 100% hands on deck. Collaboration is often limited by the pace of a human interaction: a design review, a question about some code etc. The only way to not have this speed limit is to remove all such interactions which is very difficult (and probably not desirable either). If I worked on off dates and my colleagues on even dates, the shortest time for me to get a code review would be 24h! Most communication can (and often should) be async, but there is a difference between a 10 minute turnaround and a day. Also, if something is very urgent one should be able to get hold of someone e.g give them a call. Developers hate being interrupted, for good reason, but that doesn’t mean developers should never expect to be interrupted. I think a shorter and flexible workweek is a good idea but having time zone overlap or “required work days” to maximize overlapping work time is probably required in most cases.

missedthecue 5y ago

It's not that you need all hands on deck 100% of the time. It's that having people take random days off week to week is very sub-optimal and youre liable to get outcompeted. You're no longer a well oiled machine at that point, but more of a janky chaotic mess. Consistency is good.

luffapi 5y ago
That’s not true at all. Look at open source. Some of the most important software in the world was written when the devs were motivated to write it, not 9-5 m-f.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  An open source project isn't the same thing as a several thousand person corporation with not only engineers, but business analysts, legal departments, accounting, sales, client services, human resources, IT, management, and so on and so forth. Each has deadlines they have to abide by, some set by their bosses, some set by the government, and others implicitly imposed by competitors. That's much different than a pet project that's being given away for free.
  - zingar 5y ago
    I don't think gp was unaware of those conditions at corporates, but rather suggests that the layers of management, meetings and deadlines make for worse software. Also remember that opens source includes things like the Linux kernel. That "pet" project underpins almost all software that the hypothetical corporate uses and makes, and does it without the meetings and the deadlines.
- regularfry 5y ago
  Bear in mind that the modal Linux kernel dev is closer to a cubicle dweller than a basement dweller. For large, important projects it absolutely is 9-5.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Most of the open source developers who created 'most important software in the world' were paid to do it. There are very few oss projects that were developed only by volunteers.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    I think Linus and 90% of GitHub projects would disagree.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      You should probably do some research about Linus net worth. He has been employed to work on kernel for a few decades. And if we are talking about some of the most important software projects, approx. zero of them are run by hobbyists. Some niche aplications - sure. But not the most important pieces. (Disclosure: for the last few years I employ 4-8 people to work on GNU GPL licensed products, so I know a thing or two about how it works)
      - luffapi 5y ago
        Do you really think Linus works 9-5? I assure you he doesn’t. I’ve also developed and led teams that developed many OSS projects and very successful consumer applications. Not once did I micromanage my team’s working hours. They make their own schedules as people know best when they can produce good output.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Linus is very disciplined, so yeah, he likely does work 9-5, like most organized people with a family do. As for 'micromanaging working hours', it's not a question of micromanagement, but of communication. It is far easier for everyone to work in the same rythm, knowing that you aren't distracting a person you need to contact from his private life.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  The biggest and widest used open source projects have billions in corporate investment in them. None were simply the product of devs working in off hours for free for fun.

fuzzfactor 5y ago

>if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Seriously. Especially when you run 24/7. Then you know it's really bad when a 24/7 operation "rises" to a challenge by calling all hands on deck. And at the same time battle stations because they don't even know the difference.

alkonaut 5y ago

Being negatively affected by lack of sync (days off, different time zones) isn’t the same as needing 100% hands on deck. Collaboration is often limited by the pace of a human interaction: a design review, a question about some code etc. The only way to not have this speed limit is to remove all such interactions which is very difficult (and probably not desirable either). If I worked on off dates and my colleagues on even dates, the shortest time for me to get a code review would be 24h! Most communication can (and often should) be async, but there is a difference between a 10 minute turnaround and a day. Also, if something is very urgent one should be able to get hold of someone e.g give them a call. Developers hate being interrupted, for good reason, but that doesn’t mean developers should never expect to be interrupted. I think a shorter and flexible workweek is a good idea but having time zone overlap or “required work days” to maximize overlapping work time is probably required in most cases.