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Nonsense? How about you read up on Operation Ten-Go and the senseless suicidal demise of the battleship Yamato, wasting the lives of two and a half thousand Ja

Nonsense? How about you read up on Operation Ten-Go and the senseless suicidal demise of the battleship Yamato, wasting the lives of two and a half thousand Japanese men to accomplish absolutely nothing except a show of defiance. In total more than 4,000 Japanese men lost their lives that day, while less than 100 Americans were killed. They knew it was suicide and they did it anyway. > The ships' crews were briefed on the nature of the mission and given the opportunity to stay behind if desired; none did. Your parent post is right, the Japanese military were absolute fanatics. Edit: And another point. After the second atomic bombing, military officers attempted to overthrow the Japanese emperor to prevent the surrender. After the second atomic bombing. Let that sink in. If not for the heroic actions of a few Japanese men, they might have succeeded in suppressing the broadcast of the surrender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident

mezentius 5y ago
This is a good example, although I would be careful about characterizing the entire Japanese military as fanatics. (To his great credit, Carlin is also careful in this regard, and discusses the issue at some length.) The average Japanese soldier was certainly perceived as a fanatic—due a combination of the evidence at hand at the time, deliberate Japanese policy and propaganda, and also a lot of rather nasty racial narratives—which had a lot to do with why total war was seen as unavoidable.
- slipframe 5y ago
  I think the word fanatic is justified, but I see that it has derogatory connotations. Let's put it this way, the Japanese military, soldiers, sailors and officers, all provided their extreme courage and devotion numerous times over in that war. Courage and devotion to a horrible cause, but nonetheless they certainly weren't quitters. Another example: 21,000 Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima, but only 216 taken as prisoners. They fought for five weeks until the bitter end. The stubborn defiance demonstrated at the Battle of Iwo Jima and Operation Ten-Go both played a role in the decision to drop atomic bombs on Japan.
  - mezentius 5y ago
    You're right that these are the sorts of figures that influenced the decision. It's also worth remembering that there were high-ranking members of the Japanese military who questioned the logic of the war or ordered retreats from indefensible positions, but were often arrested, assassinated, or ordered to commit suicide. Any stance other than loud, defiant resistance proved dangerous within a military hierarchy dominated by extremists. There is also some evidence that Japanese Army officers created a deliberate culture of extreme violence, ordering ordinary soldiers to commit atrocities, for example, as a way of ruling out surrender as an option. The soldiers would then assume that their treatment by the other side would be identical. I don't object to the word "fanatic" out of some semantic pedantry or because it's derogatory per se, but I think it robs us of some consideration of the individuals in question, and the various strands of policy, training, propaganda, fear, group pressure, and nostalgic death-worshipping cultural narratives to which they were subjected. The result was certainly the perception of fanaticism, which was intended to demoralize the Allies but backfired terribly, like the decision to prosecute the war itself. (And, as you point out, produced an enormous wastage of lives for no real gain.)

mezentius 5y ago

This is a good example, although I would be careful about characterizing the entire Japanese military as fanatics. (To his great credit, Carlin is also careful in this regard, and discusses the issue at some length.) The average Japanese soldier was certainly perceived as a fanatic—due a combination of the evidence at hand at the time, deliberate Japanese policy and propaganda, and also a lot of rather nasty racial narratives—which had a lot to do with why total war was seen as unavoidable.

slipframe 5y ago
I think the word fanatic is justified, but I see that it has derogatory connotations. Let's put it this way, the Japanese military, soldiers, sailors and officers, all provided their extreme courage and devotion numerous times over in that war. Courage and devotion to a horrible cause, but nonetheless they certainly weren't quitters. Another example: 21,000 Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima, but only 216 taken as prisoners. They fought for five weeks until the bitter end. The stubborn defiance demonstrated at the Battle of Iwo Jima and Operation Ten-Go both played a role in the decision to drop atomic bombs on Japan.
- mezentius 5y ago
  You're right that these are the sorts of figures that influenced the decision. It's also worth remembering that there were high-ranking members of the Japanese military who questioned the logic of the war or ordered retreats from indefensible positions, but were often arrested, assassinated, or ordered to commit suicide. Any stance other than loud, defiant resistance proved dangerous within a military hierarchy dominated by extremists. There is also some evidence that Japanese Army officers created a deliberate culture of extreme violence, ordering ordinary soldiers to commit atrocities, for example, as a way of ruling out surrender as an option. The soldiers would then assume that their treatment by the other side would be identical. I don't object to the word "fanatic" out of some semantic pedantry or because it's derogatory per se, but I think it robs us of some consideration of the individuals in question, and the various strands of policy, training, propaganda, fear, group pressure, and nostalgic death-worshipping cultural narratives to which they were subjected. The result was certainly the perception of fanaticism, which was intended to demoralize the Allies but backfired terribly, like the decision to prosecute the war itself. (And, as you point out, produced an enormous wastage of lives for no real gain.)