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> What a CoC does is give clear expectations for everyone in the community. That's my whole point; that CoCs might be a necessary step for social changes that

by shakow 5y ago

> What a CoC does is give clear expectations for everyone in the community. That's my whole point; that CoCs might be a necessary step for social changes that quite many people don't understand and/or master yet (e.g. custom pronouns) is understandable. But apologize after you hurt someone is something I (and, I assume, most people) was taught when I was 4 y.o. and should be widely applied. What will be next, a little panel reminding you to say "hello" and "goodbye" when you come in and leave, or "don't forget to say thank you" next to the cashier?

faitswulff 5y ago
The world is a much less friendly place than most kindergartens. Saying sorry both acknowledges culpability and results in losing face. An adult issuing a true apology to another adult is very rare.
- shakow 5y ago
  > Saying sorry both acknowledges culpability and results in losing face. That sounds awfully weird for me coming from an environment where accepting your errors and apologizing is seen as the only honorable option; "noblesse oblige" and catholicism-impregnated traditions I assume.
- andrewaylett 5y ago
  We try, for ourselves and with our children, to make a distinction between "I'm sorry" and "please forgive me" -- saying "I'm sorry" is an expression that you wish that something hadn't happened, or had happened differently. It's not (or at least it shouldn't be) an admission of a moral failing. Asking for forgiveness, on the other hand, is admitting that what I did was wrong. That's not necessarily the same thing that I'm sorry about -- as an example, "I'm sorry that ball hit you on the head, please would you forgive me for not being careful enough?". This separates my actions from their consequences in a way that acknowledges their affect on other people. And I'm quite glad that in most situations I find myself, someone being willing to admit when they are wrong is considered a positive. It builds trust, and shouldn't result in losing face.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  > The world is a much less friendly place than most kindergartens. Saying sorry both acknowledges culpability and results in losing face. An adult issuing a true apology to another adult is very rare. If that's your experience I feel bad for the toxic environments in which you must be immersed. Just this week I witnessed one of my co-workers apologize to another, publicly, in front of a number of their fellow colleagues, for behaviour they regretted. And yes, it was a genuine apology. And no there was nothing to be gained for this individual, personally, by delivering that apology. I myself have both given and received many apologies in my professional career. If that's rare, it's only because most people, most of the time, don't behave in a way that warrants apologizing later. It's precisely the kind of fatalism you express, here, that leads to bad behaviour going unaddressed.
  - faitswulff 5y ago
    Misplaced pity is an odd thing to add to your comment.
gjs278 5y ago
you don’t need to say thank you to the cashier. there are self checkouts. the cashier is a pointless job and should be abolished. I should not be forced to talk to them because some company isn’t willing to upgrade their infrastructure.
acdha 5y ago
My point was simply that these aren't necessarily as universal as people might think, especially in a large multi-national community like open source. There's a fair amount of cultural variation on what's considered worthy of an apology and a CoC can be helpful simply by getting people to think about that up front rather than after something happens.

by shakow 5y ago

faitswulff 5y ago

The world is a much less friendly place than most kindergartens. Saying sorry both acknowledges culpability and results in losing face. An adult issuing a true apology to another adult is very rare.

shakow 5y ago
> Saying sorry both acknowledges culpability and results in losing face. That sounds awfully weird for me coming from an environment where accepting your errors and apologizing is seen as the only honorable option; "noblesse oblige" and catholicism-impregnated traditions I assume.
andrewaylett 5y ago
We try, for ourselves and with our children, to make a distinction between "I'm sorry" and "please forgive me" -- saying "I'm sorry" is an expression that you wish that something hadn't happened, or had happened differently. It's not (or at least it shouldn't be) an admission of a moral failing. Asking for forgiveness, on the other hand, is admitting that what I did was wrong. That's not necessarily the same thing that I'm sorry about -- as an example, "I'm sorry that ball hit you on the head, please would you forgive me for not being careful enough?". This separates my actions from their consequences in a way that acknowledges their affect on other people. And I'm quite glad that in most situations I find myself, someone being willing to admit when they are wrong is considered a positive. It builds trust, and shouldn't result in losing face.
CarelessExpert 5y ago
> The world is a much less friendly place than most kindergartens. Saying sorry both acknowledges culpability and results in losing face. An adult issuing a true apology to another adult is very rare. If that's your experience I feel bad for the toxic environments in which you must be immersed. Just this week I witnessed one of my co-workers apologize to another, publicly, in front of a number of their fellow colleagues, for behaviour they regretted. And yes, it was a genuine apology. And no there was nothing to be gained for this individual, personally, by delivering that apology. I myself have both given and received many apologies in my professional career. If that's rare, it's only because most people, most of the time, don't behave in a way that warrants apologizing later. It's precisely the kind of fatalism you express, here, that leads to bad behaviour going unaddressed.
- faitswulff 5y ago
  Misplaced pity is an odd thing to add to your comment.

gjs278 5y ago

you don’t need to say thank you to the cashier. there are self checkouts. the cashier is a pointless job and should be abolished. I should not be forced to talk to them because some company isn’t willing to upgrade their infrastructure.

acdha 5y ago

My point was simply that these aren't necessarily as universal as people might think, especially in a large multi-national community like open source. There's a fair amount of cultural variation on what's considered worthy of an apology and a CoC can be helpful simply by getting people to think about that up front rather than after something happens.