4 ms·

Personally I think the text editors in all IDEs I've tried are awful anyway. Plus IDEs are sometimes fiddly to get set up right for a given language; it's easy

by ldh 15y ago

Personally I think the text editors in all IDEs I've tried are awful anyway. Plus IDEs are sometimes fiddly to get set up right for a given language; it's easy to sink way too much time into getting things set up when you could just be writing working code. Also, it's probably helpful to learn a new language without the instant crutch of auto-completion features.

roel_v 15y ago
"Also, it's probably helpful to learn a new language without the instant crutch of auto-completion features." How is that? Why is poring over the API docs of a library to find out if you need GetSize(), get_count() or Count() better than having the computer look it up for you while you're typing? Auto-complete doesn't help in learning a language, only in using an API - and at that it's good. I guess I'm being all Statler and Waldorf here, but the hipster 'look at me I only need a text editor' is bullshit. In the OP the author boasts about using makefiles FFS! If there is one over-'engineered', obscure, bandaid-over-bandaid 'solution' for problems that only exist because of historical cruft and that is inscrutable to beginners, it's make!
- Roboprog 15y ago
  I rather like "make". Far preferable to "ant", IMHO. Some make features are perhaps a bit obscure, but the basic structure of: output.file: input.1 input.2 build_it input.* -o output.file is quite straightforward.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    OK I'll concede that make on its own in its most basic form isn't all that bad (although it's not hard to make anything look good by comparing it with Ant); it's the autotools toolchain that makes it such a jungle. Which is, strictly speaking, separate from make, and is what I was mostly agitating against.
- ldh 15y ago
  I guess I'm being all Statler and Waldorf here, but the hipster 'look at me I only need a text editor' is bullshit. I'll grant you that it's been a fairly annoying meme over the last year or two, but people are being productive every day using text editors and they probably don't care whether you think it's bullshit or not. Be productive and use what you like. Since you have such a strong reaction to it I'd love to know why you think it's "bullshit".
  - roel_v 15y ago
    Of course, I use vim every day too. I also use Visual Studio every day, and the things for which I use Visual Studio would take me 3 times as long if I had to do that with vim - and vice versa. It's a good thing too that most people don't pay too much attention to what I think, it would have a rather devastating effect on the world I'm afraid. (what I think is bullshit is the reflex where somebody learns something new and before reaching the level of competence where one starts finding flaws and drawbacks of said thing starts advocating it to the rest of the world as the silver bullet that will solve all problems. I recognize the pattern all too well since I've fallen so often for it myself. It's the exuberance of youth I guess.)
roel_v 15y ago
Oh, and also (while I'm ranting): "Plus IDEs are sometimes fiddly to get set up right for a given language; it's easy to sink way too much time into getting things set up when you could just be writing working code. " Right, because using vim or emacs is a matter of apt-get and off you go rollseyes . I'm pretty sure the configuration-to-actually using it for productive work ratio for vim and emacs users is way higher than for your average VS or Eclipse user who most of the time wouldn't even know how to configure it.
- phugoid 15y ago
  But this wasn't about productive work, just about learning from scratch. In my experience, he's right about starting with a text editor and shell. Anecdote: a complex toolchain that I have worked with for cross-compiling programs for an ARM development board was easier to set up for the command line - using an IDE just added more steps, more mystery and more problems.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    No, it was also about a production setup. The author boasted about how he after 20 or 30 or whatever years of writing software still only used a text editor and make. And a programming language where of 5 lines of the most simple program only one is really concerned with what the program actually does, is not a suitable beginner's language, or at least is not of particular use to demonstrate the most basic concepts of programming. From the article: -module(hello). -compile(export_all). start() -> "hello world". > c(hello). > hello:start(). Compared to PHP's (boo! hiss!): <?php echo "hello world"; (arguably one would have to add the second command for calling it from the command line to this for a fair comparison; on the other hand the command for starting the Erlang shell wasn't included in the 5 lines either: c:\php\php.exe helloworld.php )
- ldh 15y ago
  Relax. I'm not saying I don't think IDEs are useful or that I don't use one myself. The point of TFA is that there's some benefit, especially when learning a language, to just getting down to the business of writing text, compiling, and running it with as little other cognitive load as possible. "Right, because using vim or emacs is a matter of apt-get and off you go rollseyes " Uh, yes? Isn't that exactly what was demonstrated in the article? Substitute Notepad or whatever is on hand instead of vim/emacs if you want - what configuration could possibly be needed for producing a text file? Fancy editing features are nice, but again - the point is to just get down to writing code. Maybe your overreaction to the ghastly notion of using vim or emacs belies your assumption that hipster straw men are trying to steal your IDE from you and make you write Rails code in Vim. Anyway, I'll bet you an upvote you couldn't present a similarly concise example of how to write, compile, and run an Erlang program using an IDE.

by ldh 15y ago

roel_v 15y ago

"Also, it's probably helpful to learn a new language without the instant crutch of auto-completion features." How is that? Why is poring over the API docs of a library to find out if you need GetSize(), get_count() or Count() better than having the computer look it up for you while you're typing? Auto-complete doesn't help in learning a language, only in using an API - and at that it's good. I guess I'm being all Statler and Waldorf here, but the hipster 'look at me I only need a text editor' is bullshit. In the OP the author boasts about using makefiles FFS! If there is one over-'engineered', obscure, bandaid-over-bandaid 'solution' for problems that only exist because of historical cruft and that is inscrutable to beginners, it's make!

Roboprog 15y ago
I rather like "make". Far preferable to "ant", IMHO. Some make features are perhaps a bit obscure, but the basic structure of: output.file: input.1 input.2 build_it input.* -o output.file is quite straightforward.
- roel_v 15y ago
  OK I'll concede that make on its own in its most basic form isn't all that bad (although it's not hard to make anything look good by comparing it with Ant); it's the autotools toolchain that makes it such a jungle. Which is, strictly speaking, separate from make, and is what I was mostly agitating against.
ldh 15y ago
I guess I'm being all Statler and Waldorf here, but the hipster 'look at me I only need a text editor' is bullshit. I'll grant you that it's been a fairly annoying meme over the last year or two, but people are being productive every day using text editors and they probably don't care whether you think it's bullshit or not. Be productive and use what you like. Since you have such a strong reaction to it I'd love to know why you think it's "bullshit".
- roel_v 15y ago
  Of course, I use vim every day too. I also use Visual Studio every day, and the things for which I use Visual Studio would take me 3 times as long if I had to do that with vim - and vice versa. It's a good thing too that most people don't pay too much attention to what I think, it would have a rather devastating effect on the world I'm afraid. (what I think is bullshit is the reflex where somebody learns something new and before reaching the level of competence where one starts finding flaws and drawbacks of said thing starts advocating it to the rest of the world as the silver bullet that will solve all problems. I recognize the pattern all too well since I've fallen so often for it myself. It's the exuberance of youth I guess.)

roel_v 15y ago

Oh, and also (while I'm ranting): "Plus IDEs are sometimes fiddly to get set up right for a given language; it's easy to sink way too much time into getting things set up when you could just be writing working code. " Right, because using vim or emacs is a matter of apt-get and off you go rollseyes . I'm pretty sure the configuration-to-actually using it for productive work ratio for vim and emacs users is way higher than for your average VS or Eclipse user who most of the time wouldn't even know how to configure it.

phugoid 15y ago
But this wasn't about productive work, just about learning from scratch. In my experience, he's right about starting with a text editor and shell. Anecdote: a complex toolchain that I have worked with for cross-compiling programs for an ARM development board was easier to set up for the command line - using an IDE just added more steps, more mystery and more problems.
- roel_v 15y ago
  No, it was also about a production setup. The author boasted about how he after 20 or 30 or whatever years of writing software still only used a text editor and make. And a programming language where of 5 lines of the most simple program only one is really concerned with what the program actually does, is not a suitable beginner's language, or at least is not of particular use to demonstrate the most basic concepts of programming. From the article: -module(hello). -compile(export_all). start() -> "hello world". > c(hello). > hello:start(). Compared to PHP's (boo! hiss!): <?php echo "hello world"; (arguably one would have to add the second command for calling it from the command line to this for a fair comparison; on the other hand the command for starting the Erlang shell wasn't included in the 5 lines either: c:\php\php.exe helloworld.php )
ldh 15y ago
Relax. I'm not saying I don't think IDEs are useful or that I don't use one myself. The point of TFA is that there's some benefit, especially when learning a language, to just getting down to the business of writing text, compiling, and running it with as little other cognitive load as possible. "Right, because using vim or emacs is a matter of apt-get and off you go rollseyes " Uh, yes? Isn't that exactly what was demonstrated in the article? Substitute Notepad or whatever is on hand instead of vim/emacs if you want - what configuration could possibly be needed for producing a text file? Fancy editing features are nice, but again - the point is to just get down to writing code. Maybe your overreaction to the ghastly notion of using vim or emacs belies your assumption that hipster straw men are trying to steal your IDE from you and make you write Rails code in Vim. Anyway, I'll bet you an upvote you couldn't present a similarly concise example of how to write, compile, and run an Erlang program using an IDE.