6 ms·

This doesn’t in any way downplay your point, I just noticed this sentence and it made me think: “The idea that you run into a problem and use Google to solve it

by mwint 5y ago

This doesn’t in any way downplay your point, I just noticed this sentence and it made me think: “The idea that you run into a problem and use Google to solve it hardly constitutes skill development.” It’s probably natural for most folks on HN to consider “googling problems” an obvious, basic first solution - but I’m always stunned by how many people in real life, outside of the IT industry, don’t have that path in their brains well-trodden. For some reason, they’d rather flail around or ask a real human (often me) for help, rather than type a couple words into a search bar and see what happens. I wonder if there’s an opportunity to teach a “how to search” class in schools. You could have some fun open-Google exams!

im_down_w_otp 5y ago
I encounter often the opposite problem where I'm regularly telling people who are flailing around on Google to deal with some unexpected problem, "I don't know, but you know you will? An Oncologist/IP-attorney/electrician/etc. Instead of using Google to find a pile of amateurs' competing anecdotes, perhaps you can use it to find an actual expert who can help you?"
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  Very true. "Just google it" works for a very specific subset of problems. In most disciplines, especially "real world" ones outside of computing, there is no easily googleable answer to most problems. Lawyers get a hard time for answering every question with "it depends" but unfortunately, that's the domain a lot of people work within and it's the right answer most of the time.
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  I see what you're saying, and I guess like most, I've experienced both: * A trivial technological problem that leaves my family helpless though it's literally the first hit on Google * A critical life-impacting issue, usually health but sometimes things like taxes or mortgage or household maintenance - things where trustworthy experts exist and are readily available here - and they go to random sketchy Facebook groups and get random advice from random people (frequently involving Crystals or essential oils but I digress into whole other rant :P )
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    There seem to be two modes here. There's an objective fact-checking mode, and a personal network of trust mode. This becomes a problem when the personal network is made of people who rely on hearsay, and signals-of-belonging instead of evidence-based information. It's also a problem when "official" experts aren't truly expert, for various possible reasons - including corruption, incompetence, deliberate bad faith, and others. It's hard for people who think in one way to understand that others don't think in the same ways.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
piptastic 5y ago
Good idea, "how to search" should also be paired with filtering noise. There's a ton of information now and it's not always intuitive to understand what information you should value and when.
neuroticfish 5y ago
>I wonder if there’s an opportunity to teach a “how to search” class in schools. We did this in a public middle school around 2002-2003 with boolean searches. Was this unique to my experience or has this been a common thing for awhile?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Neither: there was a brief period where there was decent ICT education, then it all went away again.
josefresco 5y ago
Pretty sure 20% of my value as a professional web builder and resident family tech support rep is my ability or willingness to "Google" something. I'm being 100% serious - I attribute most of my tech knowledge simply to my curiosity, and willingness to search out a solution. Many people (including my own kids) are happy to A) not know or B) ask someone else (me).
- mmcgaha 5y ago
  Don't think this is new either. Before we even had internet access at work people would ask me for help with excel or some other program and the first thing I would do would be to use built in help. Many folks just don't understand how much help a book/helpfile/internet can be.
  - arp242 5y ago
    It's not even unique to IT/software; my ex-girlfriend was a vet an she just googles things as well. Turns out there are lots of veterinary procedures on YouTube for example, and for some of the rarer chirurgies and such you need to do it's pretty useful.
captn3m0 5y ago
I've realized over time that my "google a solution" instinct only kicks in while I'm dealing with tech problems. For everything else, my brain takes some time to make that leap.
wyldfire 5y ago
XKCD to the rescue! [1] [1] https://xkcd.com/627/ https://xkcd.com/627/
nkrisc 5y ago
Many (most?) people are simply not curious. When they run into something they don’t know how to do, they don’t wonder how to figure out how to do it, they just sit there until someone shows them how. I assume when most people here on HN run into a problem, their first thought isn’t, “who can I ask?” but instead, “how can I figure it out?” because most hacker types are naturally curious and relish an opportunity to learn something new. In my experience most people who zero interest in learning something new when they encounter something they don’t know.
- vageli 5y ago
  > Many (most?) people are simply not curious. Is this really so? With respect, this take seems too cynical to me. I say this as a person to whom many come when they can't figure things out. I often initially feel much like you do, but I temper that feeling with the knowledge that the asker is likely under delivery pressure, etc and has to subvert their curiosity in order to maintain velocity.
  - nkrisc 5y ago
    Purely anecdotal, and perhaps cynical, but that’s been my experience. Yes, sometimes people will simply take the expedient option, but I often get the feeling they never even tried on their own, like even a little bit.
_zamorano_ 5y ago
Shockingly to me, in many fields, Google results are bare. Coming from IT, in the industry, even questions about software (very specialized, to be honest) get useless results. I think the openess of information in software is the exception, not the norm, though many fields like science are making improvements.
- prova_modena 5y ago
  This rings true for me, and reminds me of my early experience learning about machining and CNC machines. There are a lot of very low quality googleable sources out there for that field (mostly dealing with the hobbyist side of it) that crowded out the information I needed for professional development and troubleshooting. Eventually, as my knowledge of the field increased I learned the "pro" terminology for certain objects and processes, which improved my ability to search useful info. I also discovered through chance or personal recommendation some very useful pro-level online sources, which don't have a large presence on search engines. There was a long grind of several years before I got to the point where I could search online for machining information and solutions online with confidence that I could find useful results and assess their reliability. Even then, there is a lot that I need to find in books/manuals or in conversation with experts. While this is a process that takes place when learning about any technical topic, in my experience its easier in programming (and to a lesser degree general IT topics) than in fields that exist primarily in the world of physical objects. IMO, this has something to do with the tendency of programming problems to "self-define" themselves in specific textual language (I.E. compiler errors you can copy and paste into google) and also with origins and focuses of the largest internet knowledge bases.
drdec 5y ago
There are some definite non-trivial skills involved in successfully googling the solution to a problem. The biggest one is having enough reading comprehension to understand what you found (or alternatively, having enough time/patience to watch YouTube videos that take forever to get to the point. The second most important is the ability to recognize non-solutions or non-optimal solutions. For many people, they are used to learning from other people instead of from search results. So it makes sense that their first instinct is to reach for asking those around them.
at-fates-hands 5y ago
>> For some reason, they’d rather flail around or ask a real human (often me) for help, When I was briefly in sales before becoming a developer, I had a co-worker who, for the life of her, could not remember how to do a soft-line break in MS Word. She literally would ask me at least once a day. I finally just printed the keystroke (shift + return) on a sheet of paper and when she would peer over the cube, I'd just hold it up and she'd sit down again. Even in our sales group, the majority knew to use Google to get answers to all kinds of technical questions. But you're right, there's still a big group of people who are unaware or too lazy to go there first.
GiorgioG 5y ago
Agreed. The layperson for the most person does not know how to search effectively. Even among my developer friends today who are competent, if they can't find something, they come to me. I have a knack for finding things that are difficult to find - going back all the way to when AltaVista was the best search engine around - I can't really explain it. My parents, in-laws, etc... they all say on a pretty regular basis that they have trouble finding what they're searching for. Google tries really hard to return relevant results (which actually annoys me because I really, really, really want it to search for exactly what I typed - by default.)
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
> I wonder if there’s an opportunity to teach a “how to search” class in schools. You could have some fun open-Google exams! I had something similar to that when I was in elementary school, including comparing results across search engines. Boolean searches plus Smart Selection of keywords would quickly lead you to good sources. Sometime between when I graduated high school and 2016, most of those tricks stopped working reliably. Google, Bing, and DDG are the only games in town for the anglophone world and all three drown out the worthwhile results in reposted blog spam. Until you magically discover the shibboleth that directs you to actual information, you’re stuck in a hell of shitty how-to websites that have nearly-identical irrelevant information. It’s less hassle and more accurate (though slower and possibly outdated) to directly ask a known local expert.
adolph 5y ago
> opportunity to teach a “how to search” class Not as much as SEO "how to break search" opportunities.
jrm4 5y ago
I regularly teach an Information for IT professionals course in a college. My first assignment, (group, part icebreaker) involves - comparing different search engines (to google, mostly) - seeing if you can find patent numbers, etc. - and the best, I mix up a bunch of "real" and "fake" sites (e.g., the Carbon Monoxide awareness site and then the Dihydrogen Monoxide site, and giggle as they critique that the second one needs a better web designer and needs to be more professional...)

by mwint 5y ago

im_down_w_otp 5y ago

I encounter often the opposite problem where I'm regularly telling people who are flailing around on Google to deal with some unexpected problem, "I don't know, but you know you will? An Oncologist/IP-attorney/electrician/etc. Instead of using Google to find a pile of amateurs' competing anecdotes, perhaps you can use it to find an actual expert who can help you?"

mikeyouse 5y ago
Very true. "Just google it" works for a very specific subset of problems. In most disciplines, especially "real world" ones outside of computing, there is no easily googleable answer to most problems. Lawyers get a hard time for answering every question with "it depends" but unfortunately, that's the domain a lot of people work within and it's the right answer most of the time.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I see what you're saying, and I guess like most, I've experienced both: * A trivial technological problem that leaves my family helpless though it's literally the first hit on Google * A critical life-impacting issue, usually health but sometimes things like taxes or mortgage or household maintenance - things where trustworthy experts exist and are readily available here - and they go to random sketchy Facebook groups and get random advice from random people (frequently involving Crystals or essential oils but I digress into whole other rant :P )
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  There seem to be two modes here. There's an objective fact-checking mode, and a personal network of trust mode. This becomes a problem when the personal network is made of people who rely on hearsay, and signals-of-belonging instead of evidence-based information. It's also a problem when "official" experts aren't truly expert, for various possible reasons - including corruption, incompetence, deliberate bad faith, and others. It's hard for people who think in one way to understand that others don't think in the same ways.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

piptastic 5y ago

Good idea, "how to search" should also be paired with filtering noise. There's a ton of information now and it's not always intuitive to understand what information you should value and when.

neuroticfish 5y ago

>I wonder if there’s an opportunity to teach a “how to search” class in schools. We did this in a public middle school around 2002-2003 with boolean searches. Was this unique to my experience or has this been a common thing for awhile?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wizzwizz4 5y ago
Neither: there was a brief period where there was decent ICT education, then it all went away again.

josefresco 5y ago

Pretty sure 20% of my value as a professional web builder and resident family tech support rep is my ability or willingness to "Google" something. I'm being 100% serious - I attribute most of my tech knowledge simply to my curiosity, and willingness to search out a solution. Many people (including my own kids) are happy to A) not know or B) ask someone else (me).

mmcgaha 5y ago
Don't think this is new either. Before we even had internet access at work people would ask me for help with excel or some other program and the first thing I would do would be to use built in help. Many folks just don't understand how much help a book/helpfile/internet can be.
- arp242 5y ago
  It's not even unique to IT/software; my ex-girlfriend was a vet an she just googles things as well. Turns out there are lots of veterinary procedures on YouTube for example, and for some of the rarer chirurgies and such you need to do it's pretty useful.

captn3m0 5y ago

I've realized over time that my "google a solution" instinct only kicks in while I'm dealing with tech problems. For everything else, my brain takes some time to make that leap.

wyldfire 5y ago

XKCD to the rescue! [1] [1] https://xkcd.com/627/ https://xkcd.com/627/

nkrisc 5y ago

Many (most?) people are simply not curious. When they run into something they don’t know how to do, they don’t wonder how to figure out how to do it, they just sit there until someone shows them how. I assume when most people here on HN run into a problem, their first thought isn’t, “who can I ask?” but instead, “how can I figure it out?” because most hacker types are naturally curious and relish an opportunity to learn something new. In my experience most people who zero interest in learning something new when they encounter something they don’t know.

vageli 5y ago
> Many (most?) people are simply not curious. Is this really so? With respect, this take seems too cynical to me. I say this as a person to whom many come when they can't figure things out. I often initially feel much like you do, but I temper that feeling with the knowledge that the asker is likely under delivery pressure, etc and has to subvert their curiosity in order to maintain velocity.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  Purely anecdotal, and perhaps cynical, but that’s been my experience. Yes, sometimes people will simply take the expedient option, but I often get the feeling they never even tried on their own, like even a little bit.

_zamorano_ 5y ago

Shockingly to me, in many fields, Google results are bare. Coming from IT, in the industry, even questions about software (very specialized, to be honest) get useless results. I think the openess of information in software is the exception, not the norm, though many fields like science are making improvements.

prova_modena 5y ago
This rings true for me, and reminds me of my early experience learning about machining and CNC machines. There are a lot of very low quality googleable sources out there for that field (mostly dealing with the hobbyist side of it) that crowded out the information I needed for professional development and troubleshooting. Eventually, as my knowledge of the field increased I learned the "pro" terminology for certain objects and processes, which improved my ability to search useful info. I also discovered through chance or personal recommendation some very useful pro-level online sources, which don't have a large presence on search engines. There was a long grind of several years before I got to the point where I could search online for machining information and solutions online with confidence that I could find useful results and assess their reliability. Even then, there is a lot that I need to find in books/manuals or in conversation with experts. While this is a process that takes place when learning about any technical topic, in my experience its easier in programming (and to a lesser degree general IT topics) than in fields that exist primarily in the world of physical objects. IMO, this has something to do with the tendency of programming problems to "self-define" themselves in specific textual language (I.E. compiler errors you can copy and paste into google) and also with origins and focuses of the largest internet knowledge bases.

drdec 5y ago

There are some definite non-trivial skills involved in successfully googling the solution to a problem. The biggest one is having enough reading comprehension to understand what you found (or alternatively, having enough time/patience to watch YouTube videos that take forever to get to the point. The second most important is the ability to recognize non-solutions or non-optimal solutions. For many people, they are used to learning from other people instead of from search results. So it makes sense that their first instinct is to reach for asking those around them.

at-fates-hands 5y ago

>> For some reason, they’d rather flail around or ask a real human (often me) for help, When I was briefly in sales before becoming a developer, I had a co-worker who, for the life of her, could not remember how to do a soft-line break in MS Word. She literally would ask me at least once a day. I finally just printed the keystroke (shift + return) on a sheet of paper and when she would peer over the cube, I'd just hold it up and she'd sit down again. Even in our sales group, the majority knew to use Google to get answers to all kinds of technical questions. But you're right, there's still a big group of people who are unaware or too lazy to go there first.

GiorgioG 5y ago

Agreed. The layperson for the most person does not know how to search effectively. Even among my developer friends today who are competent, if they can't find something, they come to me. I have a knack for finding things that are difficult to find - going back all the way to when AltaVista was the best search engine around - I can't really explain it. My parents, in-laws, etc... they all say on a pretty regular basis that they have trouble finding what they're searching for. Google tries really hard to return relevant results (which actually annoys me because I really, really, really want it to search for exactly what I typed - by default.)

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

> I wonder if there’s an opportunity to teach a “how to search” class in schools. You could have some fun open-Google exams! I had something similar to that when I was in elementary school, including comparing results across search engines. Boolean searches plus Smart Selection of keywords would quickly lead you to good sources. Sometime between when I graduated high school and 2016, most of those tricks stopped working reliably. Google, Bing, and DDG are the only games in town for the anglophone world and all three drown out the worthwhile results in reposted blog spam. Until you magically discover the shibboleth that directs you to actual information, you’re stuck in a hell of shitty how-to websites that have nearly-identical irrelevant information. It’s less hassle and more accurate (though slower and possibly outdated) to directly ask a known local expert.

adolph 5y ago

> opportunity to teach a “how to search” class Not as much as SEO "how to break search" opportunities.

jrm4 5y ago

I regularly teach an Information for IT professionals course in a college. My first assignment, (group, part icebreaker) involves - comparing different search engines (to google, mostly) - seeing if you can find patent numbers, etc. - and the best, I mix up a bunch of "real" and "fake" sites (e.g., the Carbon Monoxide awareness site and then the Dihydrogen Monoxide site, and giggle as they critique that the second one needs a better web designer and needs to be more professional...)