5 ms·

"People" sciences like sociology, psychology and economics can make incredibly misleading claims because one experiment over a small sample of people at a certa

"People" sciences like sociology, psychology and economics can make incredibly misleading claims because one experiment over a small sample of people at a certain moment in time might seem to support a claim, while the actual reason for the observed results is a factor which is never taken in consideration. On the other hand, conducting those experiments over wider demographics and in different points in time means that the study wants to build "universal" models of how each single person in the whole world acts, which is utterly dismissive of the specific local environment around people. Sociology in particular should always be approached highly critically, because applying those theories and reasoning in its terms often means mass control over people's free will.

hpoe 5y ago
Honestly all sociology I have seen or been exposed to, including in college, seems to be more interested in acting as a platform to push specific ideas, rather than an attempt to find truth. Beyond that those involved in sociology seem to believe that a study is the same thing as an experiment and like to believe that constitutes proof. Ultimately we can't really run AB experiments on society at large because we are living in; however humanity has at its disposal all of history as a case study. My point is if you really want to understand how societies interact and form, and react, and live ask a historian, not a sociologist. I also would apply most of these comments to economics except there seems to be more diversity of viewpoints, and studies are used less than math to try and provide a veneer of respectability. EDIT: If someone feels that history is inferior to sociology for understanding how societies act and behave please tell me why. I want to understand where I am wrong. But I see a lot of our arguments that we are having in society nowadays the same as one's had a thousand years ago, the discussions over Social Media are basically the exact same ones people had over the printing press in Europe, I recently read "The Republic" and there were the exact same arguments I see repeated here. So if you feel contrary please tell me why, I admit I could be wrong, but want to understand where my reasoning is flawed.
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  I felt this way as well. But you might benefit from reading more old school sociology books. C. Wright Mills The Sociological Imagination is great (should have been taught in college to you). Thorstein Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class is good as well. These really seemed to me like attempts to approach truth, and perhaps that's because of the time they were written in vs the time we live in now.
- dash2 5y ago
  I think you are naive about history. I'm an economist. If I threw away the half of the data that didn't support my findings, and got caught, I'd lose my job and never publish again. I'm pretty sure the same is true in other social sciences, such as psychology. This is true irrespective of the well-documented problems that the article describes, which certainly also apply in economics and elsewhere, to varying degrees. By contrast, when historians are caught cutting sentences in half to prove their point, they don't lose their jobs. They don't even lose their Pulitzers: https://davidhughjones.blogspot.com/2020/07/can-we-trust-historians.html https://davidhughjones.blogspot.com/2020/07/can-we-trust-his...
  - hpoe 5y ago
    After following up on your sources, I surrender my position. It appears that the quest for truth has largely been abandoned in academia, and that integrity is a fools dream. We truly are as T.S Elot said the hollow men.
    - dash2 5y ago
      Let's not go overboard now....
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    But let's not pretend that historians influence the policy makers as much as sociologists and economists do either. The damages when they are wrong are orders of magnitude bigger. They are assumed to be right, sometimes even without proof, until they are tragically proven wrong. And nobody lose their job anyway. Have you ever seen a sociologist lose the job because proposed something to a politician that resulted in lots of people having their life ruined? I never did, honestly. Have the last three more recent economic and social crisis been caused by historians mistakes? https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/sociologys-culture-of-trust-dont-verify/ https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/sociologys...
    - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
      Economic policy is implemented by the parliament and the executive branch. It rarely closely follows advice by the economists. Even the Fed chair is a lawyer!
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but frankly would be a bit frustrating to limit one's studies of human behavior to just history without trying to understand the dynamics of current societies, trying to understand how they respond to change and so on. Both fields have a completely different set of instruments and very limited overlap.
  - jackcosgrove 5y ago
    The best social science studies involve often accidental experiments, where good experimental conditions occur not because of design but because of happenstance. The analysis of these situations could be construed as a historical case study, or it could be construed as an experiment. I agree that seeing analogues in past societies is not the best approach, but studying history can sometimes reveal experiment-like conditions.
    - Macha 5y ago
      Another similar issue is with data from situations that would be clearly unethical to intentionally create. Behaviour of plane crash survivors standard on mountainsides, castaways, feral children, etc
rafael_c 5y ago
"On the other hand, conducting those experiments over wider demographics and in different points in time means that the study wants to build "universal" models of how each single person in the whole world acts, which is utterly dismissive of the specific local environment around people." I don't think building "universal models" or observing recurring patterns through analysis of 'experiments over wider demographics and in different points in time' require the ambition to predict a single individual behavior or actions as a corollary. The problem lies - like you said - with the policymaker. And well more generally with people who extrapolate the results of a paper inadequately.
- skybrian 5y ago
  The problem is even more pervasive than that. There is an irresistible tendency to try to make universal statements rather than just sharing anecdotes and not generalizing from them. Like, for example, I just made two universal statements, didn’t I?
cwkoss 5y ago
I majored in psychology in undergrad. A big part of why I didn't look for a psychology focused job is that the science is all so loose. I'd often learn about two different study-backed phenomena is two different classes that somewhat contradicted each other. Or I'd learn in a subsequent class that a previously taught study has been invalidated in one way or another. Almost everything is measured subjectively, so huge parts of our knowledge of psychology are a house of cards resting on assumptions that the diagnostic questionnaires used to measure are accurate and reliable. Many of the measured effects are small, and so it's hard to trust that randomization and controls are sufficient. Replication of results is a major issue. It all just feels so 'loose' compared to the physical sciences.
- bingidingi 5y ago
  Think about how loose medical science used to be (and for how long)! leeches, bloodletting, miasma, ridiculous enemas and all sorts of outright nonsense. We've got a lot more mistakes to make, but social sciences will improve too.
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    To be fair, no one was using statistics and the scientific method to support bloodletting, or miasma theory.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      No, but let's not forget that much of statistics was originally invented to provide a rigorous underpinning for eugenics. Pearson, who invented many of the most commonly used statistical results, was a prominent eugenicist and contributed greatly to its ideas.
      - ch4s3 5y ago
        That doesn't mean that statistics aren't a useful tool for checking the strength of evidence, or building a case for a hypothesis.
rijoja 5y ago
Yeah so you have to make a difference between empirical science and science here really. Which Max Weber who was one of the pillars of social sciences stated around one hundred years ago. "As such, he was a key proponent of methodological anti-positivism, arguing for the study of social action through interpretive (rather than empiricist) methods, based on understanding the purpose and meanings that individuals attach to their own actions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber edit: This is then further developed by the so called Frankfurt School as Critical Theory.
- acituan 5y ago
  Alternatively, anti-positivist endeavors should find themselves another space to occupy and not piggy-back on an institutional adjacency to actual sciences to posture credibility, authority, attain public funding etc.
  - rijoja 5y ago
    On the other hand one might also argue that positivism is just a school of philosophy and that positivists are piggy backing on a thousands of years old tradition of philosophy.
    - bgandrew 5y ago
      >> thousands of years old tradition of philosophy imagine those proponents of 'thousands of years old tradition of philosophy' would try to accomplish anything with it. how funny that would be..

hpoe 5y ago

Honestly all sociology I have seen or been exposed to, including in college, seems to be more interested in acting as a platform to push specific ideas, rather than an attempt to find truth. Beyond that those involved in sociology seem to believe that a study is the same thing as an experiment and like to believe that constitutes proof. Ultimately we can't really run AB experiments on society at large because we are living in; however humanity has at its disposal all of history as a case study. My point is if you really want to understand how societies interact and form, and react, and live ask a historian, not a sociologist. I also would apply most of these comments to economics except there seems to be more diversity of viewpoints, and studies are used less than math to try and provide a veneer of respectability. EDIT: If someone feels that history is inferior to sociology for understanding how societies act and behave please tell me why. I want to understand where I am wrong. But I see a lot of our arguments that we are having in society nowadays the same as one's had a thousand years ago, the discussions over Social Media are basically the exact same ones people had over the printing press in Europe, I recently read "The Republic" and there were the exact same arguments I see repeated here. So if you feel contrary please tell me why, I admit I could be wrong, but want to understand where my reasoning is flawed.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago
I felt this way as well. But you might benefit from reading more old school sociology books. C. Wright Mills The Sociological Imagination is great (should have been taught in college to you). Thorstein Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class is good as well. These really seemed to me like attempts to approach truth, and perhaps that's because of the time they were written in vs the time we live in now.
dash2 5y ago
I think you are naive about history. I'm an economist. If I threw away the half of the data that didn't support my findings, and got caught, I'd lose my job and never publish again. I'm pretty sure the same is true in other social sciences, such as psychology. This is true irrespective of the well-documented problems that the article describes, which certainly also apply in economics and elsewhere, to varying degrees. By contrast, when historians are caught cutting sentences in half to prove their point, they don't lose their jobs. They don't even lose their Pulitzers: https://davidhughjones.blogspot.com/2020/07/can-we-trust-historians.html https://davidhughjones.blogspot.com/2020/07/can-we-trust-his...
- hpoe 5y ago
  After following up on your sources, I surrender my position. It appears that the quest for truth has largely been abandoned in academia, and that integrity is a fools dream. We truly are as T.S Elot said the hollow men.
  - dash2 5y ago
    Let's not go overboard now....
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  But let's not pretend that historians influence the policy makers as much as sociologists and economists do either. The damages when they are wrong are orders of magnitude bigger. They are assumed to be right, sometimes even without proof, until they are tragically proven wrong. And nobody lose their job anyway. Have you ever seen a sociologist lose the job because proposed something to a politician that resulted in lots of people having their life ruined? I never did, honestly. Have the last three more recent economic and social crisis been caused by historians mistakes? https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/sociologys-culture-of-trust-dont-verify/ https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/sociologys...
  - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
    Economic policy is implemented by the parliament and the executive branch. It rarely closely follows advice by the economists. Even the Fed chair is a lawyer!
dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
I don't disagree with you, but frankly would be a bit frustrating to limit one's studies of human behavior to just history without trying to understand the dynamics of current societies, trying to understand how they respond to change and so on. Both fields have a completely different set of instruments and very limited overlap.
- jackcosgrove 5y ago
  The best social science studies involve often accidental experiments, where good experimental conditions occur not because of design but because of happenstance. The analysis of these situations could be construed as a historical case study, or it could be construed as an experiment. I agree that seeing analogues in past societies is not the best approach, but studying history can sometimes reveal experiment-like conditions.
  - Macha 5y ago
    Another similar issue is with data from situations that would be clearly unethical to intentionally create. Behaviour of plane crash survivors standard on mountainsides, castaways, feral children, etc

rafael_c 5y ago

"On the other hand, conducting those experiments over wider demographics and in different points in time means that the study wants to build "universal" models of how each single person in the whole world acts, which is utterly dismissive of the specific local environment around people." I don't think building "universal models" or observing recurring patterns through analysis of 'experiments over wider demographics and in different points in time' require the ambition to predict a single individual behavior or actions as a corollary. The problem lies - like you said - with the policymaker. And well more generally with people who extrapolate the results of a paper inadequately.

skybrian 5y ago
The problem is even more pervasive than that. There is an irresistible tendency to try to make universal statements rather than just sharing anecdotes and not generalizing from them. Like, for example, I just made two universal statements, didn’t I?

cwkoss 5y ago

I majored in psychology in undergrad. A big part of why I didn't look for a psychology focused job is that the science is all so loose. I'd often learn about two different study-backed phenomena is two different classes that somewhat contradicted each other. Or I'd learn in a subsequent class that a previously taught study has been invalidated in one way or another. Almost everything is measured subjectively, so huge parts of our knowledge of psychology are a house of cards resting on assumptions that the diagnostic questionnaires used to measure are accurate and reliable. Many of the measured effects are small, and so it's hard to trust that randomization and controls are sufficient. Replication of results is a major issue. It all just feels so 'loose' compared to the physical sciences.

bingidingi 5y ago
Think about how loose medical science used to be (and for how long)! leeches, bloodletting, miasma, ridiculous enemas and all sorts of outright nonsense. We've got a lot more mistakes to make, but social sciences will improve too.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  To be fair, no one was using statistics and the scientific method to support bloodletting, or miasma theory.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    No, but let's not forget that much of statistics was originally invented to provide a rigorous underpinning for eugenics. Pearson, who invented many of the most commonly used statistical results, was a prominent eugenicist and contributed greatly to its ideas.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      That doesn't mean that statistics aren't a useful tool for checking the strength of evidence, or building a case for a hypothesis.

rijoja 5y ago

Yeah so you have to make a difference between empirical science and science here really. Which Max Weber who was one of the pillars of social sciences stated around one hundred years ago. "As such, he was a key proponent of methodological anti-positivism, arguing for the study of social action through interpretive (rather than empiricist) methods, based on understanding the purpose and meanings that individuals attach to their own actions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber edit: This is then further developed by the so called Frankfurt School as Critical Theory.

acituan 5y ago
Alternatively, anti-positivist endeavors should find themselves another space to occupy and not piggy-back on an institutional adjacency to actual sciences to posture credibility, authority, attain public funding etc.
- rijoja 5y ago
  On the other hand one might also argue that positivism is just a school of philosophy and that positivists are piggy backing on a thousands of years old tradition of philosophy.
  - bgandrew 5y ago
    >> thousands of years old tradition of philosophy imagine those proponents of 'thousands of years old tradition of philosophy' would try to accomplish anything with it. how funny that would be..