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> I'd also really like to see Apple come clean about the iCloud backup encryption debacle Are you referring to this article?: https://www.reuters.com/article/

> I'd also really like to see Apple come clean about the iCloud backup encryption debacle Are you referring to this article?: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... It's why I only use my Apple ID for grabbing apps from the app store. I have disabled all the `cloud storage` features of iCloud. iCloud is a privacy nightmare.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
By that logic though, Google Drive, OneDrive, AmazonS3, they are all privacy nightmares. And you might agree, but Apple is hardly alone. And like the article says, they didn’t want to poke the bear anymore. Of course the FBI has congressional friends. It is possible that Apple saw the risk of it backfiring and making things worse as too great.
- modeless 5y ago
  Google does end-to-end encryption of Android backups. And Apple knows how to do it too, but they intentionally restricted their implementation to only cover backups of Keychain passwords and a few other things, apparently because they don't have the courage to stand up to the FBI, according to Reuters. Strange considering their public stance against the FBI in the San Bernardino case and on privacy issues in general. Especially since iCloud backup totally defeats the highly touted end-to-end encryption in iMessage.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Yes, backups, and Apple should get on that. However, your photos in Google Photos, your location data, your uploads in Google Drive (equivalent to iCloud Drive OP is talking about), not end to end encrypted and no option for it. I think market share is another sign. Does anyone use actual Android Backup, or do they use the unencrypted “backups” in G Photos and elsewhere? For that reason should the FBI care? Maybe I’m wrong but I believe actual Android Backup is much less used than iCloud and confusingly named alternative “backups” within Google apps.
    - modeless 5y ago
      Look at the Reuters article they linked. iCloud backup is the issue. Usage of iCloud backup and Android backup are probably very similar (in percentage terms), why would you expect that Android backup is used less? They are pretty much equivalent features, except that one is end-to-end encrypted and the other is not. In both cases, photos are handled separately.
    - headmelted 5y ago
      Let's be really frank about it - no large company is going to offer end-to-end encryption of photos because of what kind of photos might end up on their infrastructure if they do. And honestly I don't blame them at all. I'd just like to see Apple be more transparent with this one particular issue because it undermines so much of what they're advertising to the consumer. A transparency label for iCloud backup showing what is and is not E2E before enabling would do. Most people (myself included) would be quite happy with photos being encrypted by an Apple-held key (I'm not worried about the police seeing my boring lunch pics, I just don't want photos of my kids being readily accessible to everyone else). It should be made clear if they're offering E2E for some features that other settings will render it pointless is all I'm saying.
      - dannyw 5y ago
        Are you really arguing that because child pornography exists, no large company should offer ETE photos? Despite there been reasonable solutions like bloom filters and client sided hash detection, so that known child abuse material can be detected, without it needing to compromise the privacy of 99.99999% of users? And that photos present some of the most sensitive materials on your device: - geo-IP location showing basically everywhere you have taken a photo in, ever since the dawn of time - people's consensual sex tapes - photos of passwords, account recovery codes, private keys, seed words
        vngzs 5y ago
        In the bloom filter example, what device calculates the hash inputs for the bloom filters? If it's the server, then the server needs a copy of the image to check. So is it the client? If so, how can you prevent a malicious client from forging their hashes to be those of known-safe images? Not saying it's not possible to build an E2E image storage service that also has the protections society tends to demand. Just saying that I haven't seen anyone do it yet, because these problems are subtle.
headmelted 5y ago
Yep, exactly that. I utterly agree that other direct-to-consumer options are in the same boat - but Apple is quite heavy-handed in it's messaging about, well, messaging being encrypted and private and no-one (including Apple) being able to read your messages. That's only true if you don't backup to iCloud. I would expect most people on HN to be aware of all of this of course but when you're so strongly selling your privacy protections as part of your brand, it's a pretty glaring window to leave wide open.
ksec 5y ago
iCloud E2E would be great, even if they offer it at double their current Storage price. But I would be happy with iOS Time Capsule. Or even sell E2E Backup solution only with an iOS Time Capsule. Great way to increase their Services Revenue.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

By that logic though, Google Drive, OneDrive, AmazonS3, they are all privacy nightmares. And you might agree, but Apple is hardly alone. And like the article says, they didn’t want to poke the bear anymore. Of course the FBI has congressional friends. It is possible that Apple saw the risk of it backfiring and making things worse as too great.

modeless 5y ago
Google does end-to-end encryption of Android backups. And Apple knows how to do it too, but they intentionally restricted their implementation to only cover backups of Keychain passwords and a few other things, apparently because they don't have the courage to stand up to the FBI, according to Reuters. Strange considering their public stance against the FBI in the San Bernardino case and on privacy issues in general. Especially since iCloud backup totally defeats the highly touted end-to-end encryption in iMessage.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Yes, backups, and Apple should get on that. However, your photos in Google Photos, your location data, your uploads in Google Drive (equivalent to iCloud Drive OP is talking about), not end to end encrypted and no option for it. I think market share is another sign. Does anyone use actual Android Backup, or do they use the unencrypted “backups” in G Photos and elsewhere? For that reason should the FBI care? Maybe I’m wrong but I believe actual Android Backup is much less used than iCloud and confusingly named alternative “backups” within Google apps.
  - modeless 5y ago
    Look at the Reuters article they linked. iCloud backup is the issue. Usage of iCloud backup and Android backup are probably very similar (in percentage terms), why would you expect that Android backup is used less? They are pretty much equivalent features, except that one is end-to-end encrypted and the other is not. In both cases, photos are handled separately.
  - headmelted 5y ago
    Let's be really frank about it - no large company is going to offer end-to-end encryption of photos because of what kind of photos might end up on their infrastructure if they do. And honestly I don't blame them at all. I'd just like to see Apple be more transparent with this one particular issue because it undermines so much of what they're advertising to the consumer. A transparency label for iCloud backup showing what is and is not E2E before enabling would do. Most people (myself included) would be quite happy with photos being encrypted by an Apple-held key (I'm not worried about the police seeing my boring lunch pics, I just don't want photos of my kids being readily accessible to everyone else). It should be made clear if they're offering E2E for some features that other settings will render it pointless is all I'm saying.
    - dannyw 5y ago
      Are you really arguing that because child pornography exists, no large company should offer ETE photos? Despite there been reasonable solutions like bloom filters and client sided hash detection, so that known child abuse material can be detected, without it needing to compromise the privacy of 99.99999% of users? And that photos present some of the most sensitive materials on your device: - geo-IP location showing basically everywhere you have taken a photo in, ever since the dawn of time - people's consensual sex tapes - photos of passwords, account recovery codes, private keys, seed words
      - vngzs 5y ago
        In the bloom filter example, what device calculates the hash inputs for the bloom filters? If it's the server, then the server needs a copy of the image to check. So is it the client? If so, how can you prevent a malicious client from forging their hashes to be those of known-safe images? Not saying it's not possible to build an E2E image storage service that also has the protections society tends to demand. Just saying that I haven't seen anyone do it yet, because these problems are subtle.

headmelted 5y ago

Yep, exactly that. I utterly agree that other direct-to-consumer options are in the same boat - but Apple is quite heavy-handed in it's messaging about, well, messaging being encrypted and private and no-one (including Apple) being able to read your messages. That's only true if you don't backup to iCloud. I would expect most people on HN to be aware of all of this of course but when you're so strongly selling your privacy protections as part of your brand, it's a pretty glaring window to leave wide open.

ksec 5y ago

iCloud E2E would be great, even if they offer it at double their current Storage price. But I would be happy with iOS Time Capsule. Or even sell E2E Backup solution only with an iOS Time Capsule. Great way to increase their Services Revenue.