5 ms·

It's also wrong to call this "call (or pass) by reference." Pass by reference and pass pointer by value are different things (here's an example — https://godbol

by pdpi 5y ago

It's also wrong to call this "call (or pass) by reference." Pass by reference and pass pointer by value are different things (here's an example — https://godbolt.org/z/Kv7jPPvnz https://godbolt.org/z/Kv7jPPvnz)

secondcoming 5y ago
A reference is just a pointer but with restrictions enforced by the compiler. ASM-wise, they're totally the same thing. 'Reference' doesn't mean C++'s reference, it means that you pass where the data is, not the data itself. Even Visual Basic had this concept.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  Argument-passing semantics (evaluation strategies) are something defined by the source language, not by the calling convention of the target architecture/platform. pdpi is right to point out that what the article is describing is not pass-by-reference semantics. Unlike C++, C does not support pass-by-reference (ignoring preprocessor silliness). Passing a pointer by value is not the same thing. edit To be clear, C++ supports both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference. This topic cropped up a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574
  - pdpi 5y ago
    Yes exactly. I believe Fortran and Perl only do pass by reference, for example. It's not a C++ concept, I only used C++ in that example simply because godbolt.org makes it really easy to show how the language treats the two concepts differently even though they compile to the same thing.
    - TheRealKing 5y ago
      The Fortran standard is deliberately silent about the passing method. However, virtually all Fortran compilers pass by reference.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    > are something defined by the source language, not by the calling convention of the target architecture/platform In that case perhaps the response should have been "pass-by-reference doesn't exist on machine level", not "pass-by-reference is something different", as the latter would seem to be a category error.
    - Koshkin 5y ago
      > the response should have been "pass-by-reference doesn't exist on machine level" Which would barely make any sense.
      - jhgb 5y ago
        How come? It would illustrate the notion that to a machine, everything is a value, and that (abstract) references get translated into manipulations of values (and not even always in the same way).
        Koshkin 5y ago
        Because "on a machine level" and "to a machine" are two different things (the former referring to human understanding).
        jhgb 5y ago
        They're absolutely the same thing to me.
      - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
        Assuming the machine code has no concept of a function call, isn't it true to say that pass-by-reference doesn't exist at the machine level? Function calls are a high level concept that compile down to machine code. A typical CPU deals with abstractions like jumps and copies, and has no real concept of a function call. It seems fair to say that, at the level of a typical assembly language/machine language, there is no argument passing, and therefore no evaluation strategy. Same goes for a Turing machine.
  - secondcoming 5y ago
    I'm reluctant to bikeshed, but if I read your argument correctly, then technically everything is pass-by-value since even for references the actual reference (a.k.a. pointer) is passed by value.
    - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
      Pass-by-reference is distinct from passing a pointer by value. In my old comment [0] I gave example code fragments in C# to illustrate the difference. (C# supports both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference. It's like C++ in that regard, although the syntax is different.) > I'm reluctant to bikeshed This is the kind of topic where precise phrasing is important, so I wouldn't chalk it up as pedantry. It doesn't help that Java muddied the waters with its use of the word reference. [0] Here's the link again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574
      - secondcoming 5y ago
        You've show a syntactic difference, not a functional difference. What does the 'ref' keyword change about how C# passes the argument to the function? I'd imagine (having zero C# experience) that it passes either a pointer, or an index, or an offset, to the function by value. It may also just copy the argument, pass it to the function, and then copy the copy back to the original argument (which would be daft).
        MaxBarraclough 5y ago
        > You've show a syntactic difference, not a functional difference. Kinda, but that difference is important. We can say that C allows us to simulate pass-by-reference by using pointers. It's still true that the C language does not support pass-by-reference semantics. Taking the address of a variable is an operation that the C language permits us to do, yielding a new value (a pointer value). This isn't part of C's argument-passing functionality, though. > What does the 'ref' keyword change about how C# passes the argument to the function? The internals of C# compilers aren't really the point, but I believe .Net does it the copy-intensive way, copying to pass in and copying again to pass the new value back out. I don't think this a real performance problem though, unless you overuse the feature.
  - cat199 5y ago
    this is also a case of the later nomenclature redefining the previous nomenclature in a backwards incompatible way - Wasn't there, but pretty sure in 70s, the notion of pointer and reference (and 'handle', etc) were pretty much interchangeable, since AFAIK there wasn't any compiler capable of creating a compiler-checked 'reference' construct. so, if this is true, in the relm of asm, since really we are just dealing with bits in a register that could be interpreted as data or addresses, it makes sense to treat pointer and reference interchangably, since there is no such thing as a higher-order 'reference' anyway.
    - Joker_vD 5y ago
      No, they used to use both "pointer" and "reference" interchangeably to mean an opaque handle that you could only pass around or dereference; for things that supported address arithmetic they used, well, "address". See for example [0] — the paper itself is from 1992, but it extensively quotes the papers from the seventies. [0] Amir M. Ben-Amram and Zvi Galil. 1992. On pointers versus addresses. J. ACM 39, 3 (July 1992), 617–648. DOI:https://doi.org/10.1145/146637.146666 https://doi.org/10.1145/146637.146666
jhgb 5y ago
Your example seems too C++-specific. Not all languages are defined in the same way.
- Erlangen 5y ago
  I am familiar with a small set of programming languages, but they define reference and value passing similarly. * Java: Java spec says "pass by value" * C: pass by value * C++: pass by value and reference(with ref qualifier) * C#: pass by value and reference(with ref keyword) Do you know a language that defines "pass by reference" in a very different way?
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    In assemblers and C passing by reference and passing by pointer value means the same thing.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Not sure if all language specs explicitly use the "pass-by-X" terminology but for example ANSI Smalltalk standard says things like "Each argument [of a message send] is a reference to an object." > but they define reference and value passing similarly Well, If all of them have been derived from C++ or designed by people trying to improve on C++, they would be very likely to have the notion defined similarly regardless of how anyone else would use the term, so there's not much surprise there.
    - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
      They're accepted terms in computer science. They're not specific to any programming language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy
      - jhgb 5y ago
        I was simply saying that C++ using a certain terminology was a sufficient condition for C++-derived languages to use the same terminology, you wouldn't need a CS-wide definition for this and your small set of language wouldn't allow you to make the inference that such a common definition existed. BTW the page you've linked seems to contradict some of your statements: > so they are typically described as call by value even though implementations frequently use call by reference internally for the efficiency benefits As you seem to be arguing that this is not call by reference you should probably correct the page. EDIT: It also seems that there IS some amount of language specificity anyway, since in another place of the page it says: > "In particular it is not call by value because mutations of arguments performed by the called routine will be visible to the caller. And it is not call by reference because access is not given to the variables of the caller, but merely to certain objects" I'm reasonably sure that the first part would be called "call by value" in C++ even if in context of CLU it wasn't if the usual way of doing the same in C++, namely passing a pointer to an object, were to be used.

by pdpi 5y ago

secondcoming 5y ago

A reference is just a pointer but with restrictions enforced by the compiler. ASM-wise, they're totally the same thing. 'Reference' doesn't mean C++'s reference, it means that you pass where the data is, not the data itself. Even Visual Basic had this concept.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
Argument-passing semantics (evaluation strategies) are something defined by the source language, not by the calling convention of the target architecture/platform. pdpi is right to point out that what the article is describing is not pass-by-reference semantics. Unlike C++, C does not support pass-by-reference (ignoring preprocessor silliness). Passing a pointer by value is not the same thing. edit To be clear, C++ supports both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference. This topic cropped up a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574
- pdpi 5y ago
  Yes exactly. I believe Fortran and Perl only do pass by reference, for example. It's not a C++ concept, I only used C++ in that example simply because godbolt.org makes it really easy to show how the language treats the two concepts differently even though they compile to the same thing.
  - TheRealKing 5y ago
    The Fortran standard is deliberately silent about the passing method. However, virtually all Fortran compilers pass by reference.
- jhgb 5y ago
  > are something defined by the source language, not by the calling convention of the target architecture/platform In that case perhaps the response should have been "pass-by-reference doesn't exist on machine level", not "pass-by-reference is something different", as the latter would seem to be a category error.
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    > the response should have been "pass-by-reference doesn't exist on machine level" Which would barely make any sense.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      How come? It would illustrate the notion that to a machine, everything is a value, and that (abstract) references get translated into manipulations of values (and not even always in the same way).
      - Koshkin 5y ago
        Because "on a machine level" and "to a machine" are two different things (the former referring to human understanding).
        jhgb 5y ago
        They're absolutely the same thing to me.
    - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
      Assuming the machine code has no concept of a function call, isn't it true to say that pass-by-reference doesn't exist at the machine level? Function calls are a high level concept that compile down to machine code. A typical CPU deals with abstractions like jumps and copies, and has no real concept of a function call. It seems fair to say that, at the level of a typical assembly language/machine language, there is no argument passing, and therefore no evaluation strategy. Same goes for a Turing machine.
- secondcoming 5y ago
  I'm reluctant to bikeshed, but if I read your argument correctly, then technically everything is pass-by-value since even for references the actual reference (a.k.a. pointer) is passed by value.
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    Pass-by-reference is distinct from passing a pointer by value. In my old comment [0] I gave example code fragments in C# to illustrate the difference. (C# supports both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference. It's like C++ in that regard, although the syntax is different.) > I'm reluctant to bikeshed This is the kind of topic where precise phrasing is important, so I wouldn't chalk it up as pedantry. It doesn't help that Java muddied the waters with its use of the word reference. [0] Here's the link again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553574
    - secondcoming 5y ago
      You've show a syntactic difference, not a functional difference. What does the 'ref' keyword change about how C# passes the argument to the function? I'd imagine (having zero C# experience) that it passes either a pointer, or an index, or an offset, to the function by value. It may also just copy the argument, pass it to the function, and then copy the copy back to the original argument (which would be daft).
      - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
        > You've show a syntactic difference, not a functional difference. Kinda, but that difference is important. We can say that C allows us to simulate pass-by-reference by using pointers. It's still true that the C language does not support pass-by-reference semantics. Taking the address of a variable is an operation that the C language permits us to do, yielding a new value (a pointer value). This isn't part of C's argument-passing functionality, though. > What does the 'ref' keyword change about how C# passes the argument to the function? The internals of C# compilers aren't really the point, but I believe .Net does it the copy-intensive way, copying to pass in and copying again to pass the new value back out. I don't think this a real performance problem though, unless you overuse the feature.
- cat199 5y ago
  this is also a case of the later nomenclature redefining the previous nomenclature in a backwards incompatible way - Wasn't there, but pretty sure in 70s, the notion of pointer and reference (and 'handle', etc) were pretty much interchangeable, since AFAIK there wasn't any compiler capable of creating a compiler-checked 'reference' construct. so, if this is true, in the relm of asm, since really we are just dealing with bits in a register that could be interpreted as data or addresses, it makes sense to treat pointer and reference interchangably, since there is no such thing as a higher-order 'reference' anyway.
  - Joker_vD 5y ago
    No, they used to use both "pointer" and "reference" interchangeably to mean an opaque handle that you could only pass around or dereference; for things that supported address arithmetic they used, well, "address". See for example [0] — the paper itself is from 1992, but it extensively quotes the papers from the seventies. [0] Amir M. Ben-Amram and Zvi Galil. 1992. On pointers versus addresses. J. ACM 39, 3 (July 1992), 617–648. DOI:https://doi.org/10.1145/146637.146666 https://doi.org/10.1145/146637.146666

jhgb 5y ago

Your example seems too C++-specific. Not all languages are defined in the same way.

Erlangen 5y ago
I am familiar with a small set of programming languages, but they define reference and value passing similarly. * Java: Java spec says "pass by value" * C: pass by value * C++: pass by value and reference(with ref qualifier) * C#: pass by value and reference(with ref keyword) Do you know a language that defines "pass by reference" in a very different way?
- Koshkin 5y ago
  In assemblers and C passing by reference and passing by pointer value means the same thing.
- jhgb 5y ago
  Not sure if all language specs explicitly use the "pass-by-X" terminology but for example ANSI Smalltalk standard says things like "Each argument [of a message send] is a reference to an object." > but they define reference and value passing similarly Well, If all of them have been derived from C++ or designed by people trying to improve on C++, they would be very likely to have the notion defined similarly regardless of how anyone else would use the term, so there's not much surprise there.
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    They're accepted terms in computer science. They're not specific to any programming language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy
    - jhgb 5y ago
      I was simply saying that C++ using a certain terminology was a sufficient condition for C++-derived languages to use the same terminology, you wouldn't need a CS-wide definition for this and your small set of language wouldn't allow you to make the inference that such a common definition existed. BTW the page you've linked seems to contradict some of your statements: > so they are typically described as call by value even though implementations frequently use call by reference internally for the efficiency benefits As you seem to be arguing that this is not call by reference you should probably correct the page. EDIT: It also seems that there IS some amount of language specificity anyway, since in another place of the page it says: > "In particular it is not call by value because mutations of arguments performed by the called routine will be visible to the caller. And it is not call by reference because access is not given to the variables of the caller, but merely to certain objects" I'm reasonably sure that the first part would be called "call by value" in C++ even if in context of CLU it wasn't if the usual way of doing the same in C++, namely passing a pointer to an object, were to be used.