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If you stop buying bottled water and use tap water, economy is shrinking. Reduce tap water and get some from your backyard and it shrinks again. Healthier <> e

If you stop buying bottled water and use tap water, economy is shrinking. Reduce tap water and get some from your backyard and it shrinks again. Healthier <> economy growth

XorNot 5y ago
Question: what happens to all the money you don't spend on bottled water? The economy does not shrink because you make a process more efficient.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  If you don't need anything else, it does.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    Then how do you have all that money? And where are you keeping it? (1) Earning that money is still growing the economy, and (2) even a zero-interest bank account is growing the economy (you're just not seeing any remuneration for your part in that) - and (3) even if you took the money home and destroyed it, since you're still working, you're providing a very useful deflationary function since it means someone else can print more money safely (and once again you're helping grow the economy, just yielding your output to a third party).
    - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
      What if I just take it home and keep it?
      - XorNot 5y ago
        It's identical to if you destroyed it. It just adds some risk that you might suddenly mobilize it (hence one of the reasons it's actually illegal for individuals to store large amounts of physical cash for long durations). Also irrelevant anyway from point 1: you're still working to make money, thus you're growing the economy.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        jdsully 5y ago
        There is nothing illegal about storing cash for any duration.
        bhelkey 5y ago
        > hence one of the reasons it's actually illegal for individuals to store large amounts of physical cash for long durations What county are you referring to? This is not the case in the US [1]. [1] https://josephhollander.com/illegal-large-amounts-cash/ https://josephhollander.com/illegal-large-amounts-cash/
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - mindslight 5y ago
      Eventually you work less so you never earn that money in the first place. This may involve saving up first so you have more economic bargaining power, or it may involve collective action to reduce working hours across the board.
      - XorNot 5y ago
        "Saving up" implies you're going to spend on something else. Which means you just improved your water efficiency to get other things. The only thing which is neutral here is if you literally just do nothing with the extra hours you take not working. That's unlikely: if you take up a hobby you'll be buying supplies, if you spend it helping out family then you're improving their opportunities etc.
        mindslight 5y ago
        My only point in referencing saving is that it is one path to achieve the bargaining power to actually work less, against employers who inherently want to occupy your entire life. I'm talking about having saved up enough to be comfortable working less - after which you can turn your reduced spending into reduced working. An alternative avenue that doesn't involve saving at all is collective action, which is how we've gotten down to a 40 hours per week standard. "The economy" is defined by what is legible in the financial system. In this example, that is working for a wage. Time spent on other endeavors is not reflected in such accounting (sure, money spent on those activities is obviously still part of the economy, but said money is only part of what is spent on them). Time spent on other endeavors is therefore not "growing the economy", except in some pathological sense of trying to shoehorn our entire existence into economic terms. Time spent with family or on hobbies certainly does make society better though, despite not being economic activity or "growth". In fact, this is exactly what opponents of the growth-worship philosophy are aiming for.
        XorNot 5y ago
        > "The economy" is defined by what is legible in the financial system. No it is not, this is categorically wrong. Simple question: does a barter-based tribe have an economy? Yes.
- woliveirajr 5y ago
  The money isn't generated. The company doesn't get money (didn't sell the bottles) -> pay less salary for some employee (that didn't operated the machine for that bottle) -> that didn't spent that money because he got a cheaper water

If you stop buying bottled water and use tap water, economy is shrinking. Reduce tap water and get some from your backyard and it shrinks again. Healthier <> economy growth

XorNot 5y ago

Question: what happens to all the money you don't spend on bottled water? The economy does not shrink because you make a process more efficient.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
If you don't need anything else, it does.
- XorNot 5y ago
  Then how do you have all that money? And where are you keeping it? (1) Earning that money is still growing the economy, and (2) even a zero-interest bank account is growing the economy (you're just not seeing any remuneration for your part in that) - and (3) even if you took the money home and destroyed it, since you're still working, you're providing a very useful deflationary function since it means someone else can print more money safely (and once again you're helping grow the economy, just yielding your output to a third party).
  - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
    What if I just take it home and keep it?
    - XorNot 5y ago
      It's identical to if you destroyed it. It just adds some risk that you might suddenly mobilize it (hence one of the reasons it's actually illegal for individuals to store large amounts of physical cash for long durations). Also irrelevant anyway from point 1: you're still working to make money, thus you're growing the economy.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - jdsully 5y ago
        There is nothing illegal about storing cash for any duration.
      - bhelkey 5y ago
        > hence one of the reasons it's actually illegal for individuals to store large amounts of physical cash for long durations What county are you referring to? This is not the case in the US [1]. [1] https://josephhollander.com/illegal-large-amounts-cash/ https://josephhollander.com/illegal-large-amounts-cash/
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Eventually you work less so you never earn that money in the first place. This may involve saving up first so you have more economic bargaining power, or it may involve collective action to reduce working hours across the board.
    - XorNot 5y ago
      "Saving up" implies you're going to spend on something else. Which means you just improved your water efficiency to get other things. The only thing which is neutral here is if you literally just do nothing with the extra hours you take not working. That's unlikely: if you take up a hobby you'll be buying supplies, if you spend it helping out family then you're improving their opportunities etc.
      - mindslight 5y ago
        My only point in referencing saving is that it is one path to achieve the bargaining power to actually work less, against employers who inherently want to occupy your entire life. I'm talking about having saved up enough to be comfortable working less - after which you can turn your reduced spending into reduced working. An alternative avenue that doesn't involve saving at all is collective action, which is how we've gotten down to a 40 hours per week standard. "The economy" is defined by what is legible in the financial system. In this example, that is working for a wage. Time spent on other endeavors is not reflected in such accounting (sure, money spent on those activities is obviously still part of the economy, but said money is only part of what is spent on them). Time spent on other endeavors is therefore not "growing the economy", except in some pathological sense of trying to shoehorn our entire existence into economic terms. Time spent with family or on hobbies certainly does make society better though, despite not being economic activity or "growth". In fact, this is exactly what opponents of the growth-worship philosophy are aiming for.
        XorNot 5y ago
        > "The economy" is defined by what is legible in the financial system. No it is not, this is categorically wrong. Simple question: does a barter-based tribe have an economy? Yes.
woliveirajr 5y ago
The money isn't generated. The company doesn't get money (didn't sell the bottles) -> pay less salary for some employee (that didn't operated the machine for that bottle) -> that didn't spent that money because he got a cheaper water