4 ms·

No, it doesn’t depend on the definition. This isn’t a point of contention amongst experts. The article you cite is simply wrong (in particular, its claim about

by klmr 5y ago

No, it doesn’t depend on the definition. This isn’t a point of contention amongst experts. The article you cite is simply wrong (in particular, its claim about the classification of mRNA vaccines as gene therapy in Europe is categorically false), it fundamentally misunderstands how mRNA vaccines work, and it misrepresents the sources it cites supposedly in support.

AnthonBerg 5y ago
The swfinstitute.org link aside, there are different ways to define the term. It isn’t jthedisciple who is making the definition; It is a simple fact that there are two major definitions on the Wikipedia entry for gene therapy: Gene therapy is a medical field which focuses on the genetic modification of cells to produce a therapeutic effect [1] or the treatment of disease by repairing or reconstructing defective genetic material. [2] — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy [1] – Kaji, Eugene H. (7 February 2001). "Gene and Stem Cell Therapies". JAMA. 285 (5): 545–550. https://doi.org/10.1001%2Fjama.285.5.545 https://doi.org/10.1001%2Fjama.285.5.545 – ISSN 0098-7484. PMID 11176856. [2] Ermak G (2015). Emerging Medical Technologies. World Scientific. ISBN 978-981-4675-81-9 — mRNA vaccines are certainly a more ambiguous fit under the term “gene therapy”, but it can be parsed as such that they are a genetic modification of a viral cell to produce a therapeutic effect. With slightly more ambiguity but not at all without reason, we can parse mRNA vaccines as “the treatment of disease by reconstructing genetic material”. Even if the definition includes the word “defective”. To me the crux of the statement does not appear in the genetic material needing to be “defective”. Via metaphor: We may be unprotected from the elements by our shelter being defective, but it may also occur that shelter is simply missing, such as our immune response to SARS-CoV-2. I personally wouldn’t call mRNA vaccines gene therapy, but it’s more because it can induce misunderstandings on permanence rather than because of the un-parseability of the smaller term under the larger definition.
- klmr 5y ago
  > It is a simple fact that there are two major definitions on the Wikipedia entry for gene therapy: I read this as a single definition rather than two distinct ones but, regardless of how you read this, mRNA vaccines do neither of these two things. > it can be parsed as such that they are a genetic modification of a viral cell No, it cannot be parsed like this. “Genetic modification” has a specific, technical meaning and mRNA vaccines do not perform it. Furthermore, I’m not even sure what you mean by “viral cell”, since viruses don’t form cells (they form virions). Do you mean a host cell infected by a virus? Because that doesn’t apply here: mRNA vaccines don’t specifically act on infected cells, they act on healthy cells. > we can parse mRNA vaccines as “the treatment of disease by reconstructing genetic material” Again, we cannot do this, because it’s flat out incorrect. What does “reconstructing genetic material” even mean in this context? There’s no defect, so there’s nothing to reconstruct, and the mRNA vaccine does not do so anyway since, again, it does not modify the host genome. — In general I’ll note that several sentences in your answer simply make no biological sense and use made-up terms.
  - AnthonBerg 5y ago
    >> it can be parsed as such that they are a genetic modification of a viral cell > No, it cannot be parsed like this. “Genetic modification” has a specific, technical meaning and mRNA vaccines do not perform it. Furthermore, I’m not even sure what you mean by “viral cell”, since viruses don’t form cells (they form virions). Do you mean a host cell infected by a virus? Because that doesn’t apply here: mRNA vaccines don’t specifically act on infected cells, they act on healthy cells. I was ambiguously referring to virions as viral cells. Better I hadn't! - thank you - but I think I can be understood nonetheless. A modification in the frame of mind of genetic understanding is performed on a viral cell. The modification is done from the perspective of an understanding of how genes, genetic material, and genetic processes such as transcription and protein encoding work. A segment of viral genome which encodes part of the body viral is excised and modified. Then, carried on this understanding, a therapeutic effect is produced. >> we can parse mRNA vaccines as “the treatment of disease by reconstructing genetic material” > Again, we cannot do this, because it’s flat out incorrect. What does “reconstructing genetic material” even mean in this context? There’s no defect, so there’s nothing to reconstruct, and the mRNA vaccine does not do so anyway since, again, it does not modify the host genome. Indeed if you review my words you'll note that I explicitly address the lack of a defect. The mRNA vaccines we know today can certainly be viewed as a modification and reconstruction of viral genomic material. Of viral RNA genes. Per Wikipedia: "In biology, a gene is a basic unit of heredity and a sequence of nucleotides in DNA or RNA that encodes the synthesis of a gene product, either RNA or protein." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene In mRNA vaccines, the modification of the viral gene and its replication on a large scale can certainly be viewed as a reconstruction of genetic material. And it's made possible by a deep understanding of genes. According to Wikipedia, gene or genome editing is "is a type of genetic engineering in which DNA is inserted, deleted, modified or replaced in the genome of a living organism". Note the distinct concept from gene therapy – as things currently stand on Wikipedia, however imperfect Wikipedia is, fundamentally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_editing > — In general I’ll note that several sentences in your answer simply make no biological sense and use made-up terms. Maybe I've just read too much Martin-Löf and am getting overly comfortable with the abstract but I'm not worried about my ability to express my thoughts. As I'm sure you're here to build understanding, I'd like to ask you to point towards the terms you experience as made-up and the sentences that don't make sense to you. I think that is the best course of action if I am to learn anything. Otherwise I might be tempted to take it that what we are experiencing is less a lack of meaning and more a lack of comprehension. Or to make an honest suggestion, how about we stay on topic in polite discussion and charitable interpretation? Then in closing, I feel like I am compelled to highlight my repeated use of terms like "ambiguous" and "can be parsed". I also want to repeat that personally I wouldn't call mRNA vaccines gene therapy. We are in more general agreement too: I agree that the terms should be used as you describe. However, they can be and are used ambiguously. We are all the better for understanding this extant ambiguity, not least because the nuance and ambiguity are being abused in order to manipulate people. Even if only from the perspective of how information on Wikipedia can be construed by the layman - such as myself.

by klmr 5y ago

AnthonBerg 5y ago

The swfinstitute.org link aside, there are different ways to define the term. It isn’t jthedisciple who is making the definition; It is a simple fact that there are two major definitions on the Wikipedia entry for gene therapy: Gene therapy is a medical field which focuses on the genetic modification of cells to produce a therapeutic effect [1] or the treatment of disease by repairing or reconstructing defective genetic material. [2] — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy [1] – Kaji, Eugene H. (7 February 2001). "Gene and Stem Cell Therapies". JAMA. 285 (5): 545–550. https://doi.org/10.1001%2Fjama.285.5.545 https://doi.org/10.1001%2Fjama.285.5.545 – ISSN 0098-7484. PMID 11176856. [2] Ermak G (2015). Emerging Medical Technologies. World Scientific. ISBN 978-981-4675-81-9 — mRNA vaccines are certainly a more ambiguous fit under the term “gene therapy”, but it can be parsed as such that they are a genetic modification of a viral cell to produce a therapeutic effect. With slightly more ambiguity but not at all without reason, we can parse mRNA vaccines as “the treatment of disease by reconstructing genetic material”. Even if the definition includes the word “defective”. To me the crux of the statement does not appear in the genetic material needing to be “defective”. Via metaphor: We may be unprotected from the elements by our shelter being defective, but it may also occur that shelter is simply missing, such as our immune response to SARS-CoV-2. I personally wouldn’t call mRNA vaccines gene therapy, but it’s more because it can induce misunderstandings on permanence rather than because of the un-parseability of the smaller term under the larger definition.

klmr 5y ago
> It is a simple fact that there are two major definitions on the Wikipedia entry for gene therapy: I read this as a single definition rather than two distinct ones but, regardless of how you read this, mRNA vaccines do neither of these two things. > it can be parsed as such that they are a genetic modification of a viral cell No, it cannot be parsed like this. “Genetic modification” has a specific, technical meaning and mRNA vaccines do not perform it. Furthermore, I’m not even sure what you mean by “viral cell”, since viruses don’t form cells (they form virions). Do you mean a host cell infected by a virus? Because that doesn’t apply here: mRNA vaccines don’t specifically act on infected cells, they act on healthy cells. > we can parse mRNA vaccines as “the treatment of disease by reconstructing genetic material” Again, we cannot do this, because it’s flat out incorrect. What does “reconstructing genetic material” even mean in this context? There’s no defect, so there’s nothing to reconstruct, and the mRNA vaccine does not do so anyway since, again, it does not modify the host genome. — In general I’ll note that several sentences in your answer simply make no biological sense and use made-up terms.
- AnthonBerg 5y ago
  >> it can be parsed as such that they are a genetic modification of a viral cell > No, it cannot be parsed like this. “Genetic modification” has a specific, technical meaning and mRNA vaccines do not perform it. Furthermore, I’m not even sure what you mean by “viral cell”, since viruses don’t form cells (they form virions). Do you mean a host cell infected by a virus? Because that doesn’t apply here: mRNA vaccines don’t specifically act on infected cells, they act on healthy cells. I was ambiguously referring to virions as viral cells. Better I hadn't! - thank you - but I think I can be understood nonetheless. A modification in the frame of mind of genetic understanding is performed on a viral cell. The modification is done from the perspective of an understanding of how genes, genetic material, and genetic processes such as transcription and protein encoding work. A segment of viral genome which encodes part of the body viral is excised and modified. Then, carried on this understanding, a therapeutic effect is produced. >> we can parse mRNA vaccines as “the treatment of disease by reconstructing genetic material” > Again, we cannot do this, because it’s flat out incorrect. What does “reconstructing genetic material” even mean in this context? There’s no defect, so there’s nothing to reconstruct, and the mRNA vaccine does not do so anyway since, again, it does not modify the host genome. Indeed if you review my words you'll note that I explicitly address the lack of a defect. The mRNA vaccines we know today can certainly be viewed as a modification and reconstruction of viral genomic material. Of viral RNA genes. Per Wikipedia: "In biology, a gene is a basic unit of heredity and a sequence of nucleotides in DNA or RNA that encodes the synthesis of a gene product, either RNA or protein." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene In mRNA vaccines, the modification of the viral gene and its replication on a large scale can certainly be viewed as a reconstruction of genetic material. And it's made possible by a deep understanding of genes. According to Wikipedia, gene or genome editing is "is a type of genetic engineering in which DNA is inserted, deleted, modified or replaced in the genome of a living organism". Note the distinct concept from gene therapy – as things currently stand on Wikipedia, however imperfect Wikipedia is, fundamentally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_editing > — In general I’ll note that several sentences in your answer simply make no biological sense and use made-up terms. Maybe I've just read too much Martin-Löf and am getting overly comfortable with the abstract but I'm not worried about my ability to express my thoughts. As I'm sure you're here to build understanding, I'd like to ask you to point towards the terms you experience as made-up and the sentences that don't make sense to you. I think that is the best course of action if I am to learn anything. Otherwise I might be tempted to take it that what we are experiencing is less a lack of meaning and more a lack of comprehension. Or to make an honest suggestion, how about we stay on topic in polite discussion and charitable interpretation? Then in closing, I feel like I am compelled to highlight my repeated use of terms like "ambiguous" and "can be parsed". I also want to repeat that personally I wouldn't call mRNA vaccines gene therapy. We are in more general agreement too: I agree that the terms should be used as you describe. However, they can be and are used ambiguously. We are all the better for understanding this extant ambiguity, not least because the nuance and ambiguity are being abused in order to manipulate people. Even if only from the perspective of how information on Wikipedia can be construed by the layman - such as myself.