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> against the will of the majority. I heard many strange things on HN, but this is in top 10. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the history of the Eastern

> against the will of the majority. I heard many strange things on HN, but this is in top 10. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the history of the Eastern block. In short, the governments were communist and linked to Russia, but as soon as they freed, they overthrown communism, cut the ties with Russia, and became democracies, with most of them joining the EU. Of course people were well aware of the power struggle between the USA and Russia over decades, and they had no illusions over what the interests are. After all, Western warheads were directed at their cities. Nevertheless, all of them choose West. The only exception is Belarus, where people can't express themselves freely. There many things the CIA did wrong. There were some unthinkable atrocities. But RFE wasn't one of them. Maybe it's not clear from the American perspective and the main Wikipedia page; local pages (such as[0]) are much more telling - you can easily understand that it was the only source of free expression of this kind, joined by some of the greatest thinkers, writers, and other artists and activists of that era, all of them facing grave consequences for appearing on the radio. If you haven't seen the people sitting in the evenings with their ears next to the radio (the jammers were quite strong), yearning for a few words that were not lies, it's very difficult for understand. [0] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozg%C5%82o%C5%9Bnia_Polska_Radia_Wolna_Europa https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozg%C5%82o%C5%9Bnia_Polska_Ra...

sudosysgen 5y ago
RFE was not free expression. It was just more propaganda. The people that went on it were carefully selected and it didn't balk at lies and manipulation. We both know that the change of economic systems was not somethings that the average persons did. It was executed by the leadership. Polls were made and most people were against drastic changes of economic systems that literally killed millions of people. Unless your will is to further American interests, RFE was against your will. No more, no less. It was propaganda and manipulative and untruthful just as much as Pravda. Just because you like the ideology of the propaganda doesn't make it any less of a manipulation and a déception.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  It doesn't matter what I feel, personally I'm just as against American economic imperialism as most people who see how evil it is. However, you previously said it was against the will of millions, while the opposite was true: the millions marched against communism. Millions went on the streets against the old system, and same gave their life. Does anyone want the return of communist Russia? Based on the polls, not really. Even the radical left would never suggest such a thing. > Unless your will is to further American interests, RFE was against your will. No more, no less. I'm sorry, to me it's look like a semantic error. Maybe you meant "against your interests"? Because the term "will" has a precise meaning - if I want something, this is my will. In order to have a fruitful discussion, it is necessary to adhere to the generally accepted meaning of terms, otherwise everything becomes moot.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    You're setting up a false dichotomy. The choose was between Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Between the two, the majority preferred Gorbachev. Compared to the people killed by Yeltsin economic tyranny, the people that died in the collapse were a rousing error. Even nowadays, if you poll those who were adults during the fall of the USSR, the majority would have preferred it not to fall. The will of RFE is to further American dominance. If that's what you want, it follows it, otherwise it doesn't.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
      OK, I see where the difference comes from. What happened in the Eastern block is very different from the events in Russia. In the bloc, most people were anti-communist to the core, and the anti-Russian sentiment was very vivid, because they were the occupants. In the end people were marching shouting "Ivan go home". These things obviously couldn't happen in Russia. In the bloc, it was double liberation: from communism and from Russian influence. In the end some people got rich, some got poor, but for the first time we saw the middle class, people who were able to spend a bit more than they earn. Also the value of freedom is something you can't appreciate unless it's taken from you. In Russia, things were vastly different. What happened in the 90s is very often compared to treason. People, normal people were left to themselves; the state was unable (or unwilling) to deal with poverty and rising crime. Not just ordinary crime but organized on an enormous scale. The satellite countries drifted off. Now Putin is feeding on the longing of some for the imperial past. I'm sorry to say that the Russian people have had very bad luck with their leaders over centuries. Sure, this happened in other countries too, and the French Revolution shows clearly how the poor masses felt about their rulers. The Russian Revolution did the same, albeit later, also killing a lot more folks on the way. When Stalin rose to power, the terror was even worse. You'd think that after Stalin's death people will finally start living in a relaxed way, but the communist system was still suffocating people, in this way or another. The Gorbachev/Yeltsin moment was a great chance to finally break this bad chain and have a truly free country. Russian people are wonderful, they also have many extremely smart personalities, some of them completely unknown in the West, some - like Grigori Perelman - known only in a small part and only because living in our times. I believe that through common effort Russians could construct an excellent form of government bringing benefit to everyone. But of course, with the current oligarchy system, it's way too late.

sudosysgen 5y ago

RFE was not free expression. It was just more propaganda. The people that went on it were carefully selected and it didn't balk at lies and manipulation. We both know that the change of economic systems was not somethings that the average persons did. It was executed by the leadership. Polls were made and most people were against drastic changes of economic systems that literally killed millions of people. Unless your will is to further American interests, RFE was against your will. No more, no less. It was propaganda and manipulative and untruthful just as much as Pravda. Just because you like the ideology of the propaganda doesn't make it any less of a manipulation and a déception.

dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
It doesn't matter what I feel, personally I'm just as against American economic imperialism as most people who see how evil it is. However, you previously said it was against the will of millions, while the opposite was true: the millions marched against communism. Millions went on the streets against the old system, and same gave their life. Does anyone want the return of communist Russia? Based on the polls, not really. Even the radical left would never suggest such a thing. > Unless your will is to further American interests, RFE was against your will. No more, no less. I'm sorry, to me it's look like a semantic error. Maybe you meant "against your interests"? Because the term "will" has a precise meaning - if I want something, this is my will. In order to have a fruitful discussion, it is necessary to adhere to the generally accepted meaning of terms, otherwise everything becomes moot.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You're setting up a false dichotomy. The choose was between Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Between the two, the majority preferred Gorbachev. Compared to the people killed by Yeltsin economic tyranny, the people that died in the collapse were a rousing error. Even nowadays, if you poll those who were adults during the fall of the USSR, the majority would have preferred it not to fall. The will of RFE is to further American dominance. If that's what you want, it follows it, otherwise it doesn't.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    OK, I see where the difference comes from. What happened in the Eastern block is very different from the events in Russia. In the bloc, most people were anti-communist to the core, and the anti-Russian sentiment was very vivid, because they were the occupants. In the end people were marching shouting "Ivan go home". These things obviously couldn't happen in Russia. In the bloc, it was double liberation: from communism and from Russian influence. In the end some people got rich, some got poor, but for the first time we saw the middle class, people who were able to spend a bit more than they earn. Also the value of freedom is something you can't appreciate unless it's taken from you. In Russia, things were vastly different. What happened in the 90s is very often compared to treason. People, normal people were left to themselves; the state was unable (or unwilling) to deal with poverty and rising crime. Not just ordinary crime but organized on an enormous scale. The satellite countries drifted off. Now Putin is feeding on the longing of some for the imperial past. I'm sorry to say that the Russian people have had very bad luck with their leaders over centuries. Sure, this happened in other countries too, and the French Revolution shows clearly how the poor masses felt about their rulers. The Russian Revolution did the same, albeit later, also killing a lot more folks on the way. When Stalin rose to power, the terror was even worse. You'd think that after Stalin's death people will finally start living in a relaxed way, but the communist system was still suffocating people, in this way or another. The Gorbachev/Yeltsin moment was a great chance to finally break this bad chain and have a truly free country. Russian people are wonderful, they also have many extremely smart personalities, some of them completely unknown in the West, some - like Grigori Perelman - known only in a small part and only because living in our times. I believe that through common effort Russians could construct an excellent form of government bringing benefit to everyone. But of course, with the current oligarchy system, it's way too late.