7 ms·

The mice that roared: how eight tiny countries took on foreign fishing fleets

117 points by vijayr02 5y ago

Jsharm 5y ago
Sustainability clearly can be done so why isn't it?
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Capitalism and selfishness (pun unintended).
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    It doesn’t have to be capitalism. Ships from countries with other economic systems have and do participate in illegal fishing. If you have hungry people, unproductive land, and tapped out fisheries of your own it might be tempting to sail into your neighbors waters.
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      For a lot of illegal fishing it's not even neighbors' waters but waters of countries on the other side of the globe.
      - ch4s3 5y ago
        Yes you're right but I meant neighbors in a loose sense of international community.
    - handrous 5y ago
      I'd assumed even (say) Chinese fishing fleets were capitalist enterprises. Are they government-owned, or are private-party to private-party transfers of fishing-related capital highly restricted?
      - ch4s3 5y ago
        Who could possibly even know for sure. But I think my point stands, as Vietnam has the 2nd or 3rd largest fishing fleet in the world right now, and for a few decades the Soviet Union was the 3rd largest. Pursuit of profit isn't the only reason for the tragedy of the fisheries held in common.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Fish tomorrow doesn’t make money today. It’s literally a tragedy of the commons illustrated.
rich_sasha 5y ago
I was hoping the article would say something about enforcement. Isn't it a hard problem even for developed countries with well-equipped coastguards? The article doesn't paint a picture of countries able to do that. What if the Chinese fishing fleet arrives one day and says, "so long and thanks for all the fish"? Otherwise, good on them and sustainable fish, but this is not much different to OPEC or other cartels.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  No, enforcement is an easy problem. You sink violating ships. Fishermen will give your coastal waters a wide berth if they know there is even a 1% probability they will be killed. If you're not willing to sink ships then it's pretty much impossible.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Someone 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati#Law_enforcement_and_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati#Law_enforcement_and_m...: Kiribati has no military and relies on both Australia and New Zealand for its defence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea_Defence_Force#Maritime_Element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea_Defence_Force...: According to Janes the navy is badly underfunded and much of its equipment is in need of maintenance; as a consequence it is scarcely able to carry out its tasks, with operations often delayed or cancelled. The navy's patrol craft are barely effective; fuel costs and maintenance problems mean that often only one boat is available for sea duty at any time, while the heavy landing craft have high upkeep costs and are nearing the end of their service life. Although the patrol boats may be at times serviceable, the task of patrolling such a large Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) is too great and they are heavily reliant for information about the presence of foreign ships on daily reports supplied by US satellite surveillance. The main concern is illegal tuna fishing by Japanese vessels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands#Military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands#Military: the country has not had any regular military forces since independence. The various paramilitary elements of the Royal Solomon Islands Police Force (RSIPF) were disbanded and disarmed in 2003 following the intervention of the Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands (RAMSI). RAMSI has a small military detachment headed by an Australian commander with responsibilities for assisting the police element of RAMSI in internal and external security. The RSIPF still operates two Pacific class patrol boats (RSIPV Auki and RSIPV Lata), which constitute the de facto navy of Solomon Islands. I suspect the other countries have similar military power.
ricardobeat 5y ago
> the scheme has raised fishing revenues from $25m a decade ago to $160m, or $1,400 per capita It's hard to imagine just how much fishing is going on, when that amount per head is just skimming the total value of fish caught. The real question here is how did they actually made it work? Who enforces the rules? There are hundreds of foreign fishing boats plundering the coast of Argentina right now, and it's not for lack of agreements or regulations...
- CyanBird 5y ago
  > There are hundreds of foreign fishing boats plundering the coast of Argentina right now This has always been a problem, for Uruguay too, it has only come to the current level of attention because "the evil Chinese" are doing it these days as opposed to Vietnamese, Spanish, Brazilian, Portuguese, English or US trawlers which are still there turning off their transponders and raiding National waters But I very much agree, I would have quite liked to read more on the enforcement mechanisms to avoid delinquent fishing
  - tartoran 5y ago
    Why don’t infiltrate the fleets and spoil the catch with some disturbing underwater sound that makes the fish flee? Im sure it’s not impossible to do that and it is not illegal either
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      Trawler fleets are huge and tow huge nets (or use floating nets). You can't really scare fish away because the volume swept by the nets is so huge. Driving off the fishermen is the only worthwhile solution.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Out of curiosity, I dug up a list of EEZs, sorted by total area. Since it's mostly a function of coast distance, and especially of number and distribution of islands, it's definitely different than I expected. And shows some major gaps in area:GDP, if we're talking about enforcement. (Noting: different areas can be substantially different in fishery value) https://www.liquisearch.com/exclusive_economic_zone/rankings_by_area https://www.liquisearch.com/exclusive_economic_zone/rankings...
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
The mighty English navy used to take on unarmed fishing vessels. Lethally. The Dutch first came up with the concept of international waters but it took a few centuries before everyone was on board...
- tigerlily 5y ago
  I wonder what minimum size of steel billet can be dropped from space and punch a hole in a fishing vessel's hull?
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    You really don't need that. A few patrol boats, planes, or helicopters with one or more heavy machine guns would be plenty of deterrent. A few hundred bullets would be enough to smash the bridge of a small ship. On the cheap, you could have a small fleet of turboprop recon planes, each armed with a pair of machine guns. They aren't all that expensive to operate, use widely available ammunition and fuel and often don't require much more than a smooth stretch of dirt for takeoff. If that still isn't enough, shop around for small warships or gun boats. Or mount a gun pod on your planes. A rapid-firing 20mm cannon can do a significant amount of damage since they can use explosive shells. Even the largest US Coast Guard cutter is smaller than a WWII destroyer and outgunned by any warship larger than an inflatable raft. Edit: Heck. If you want an even cheaper solution, board ships with people carrying knives and guns like the 1700s. Modern pirates already do this.
    - handrous 5y ago
      > If that still isn't enough, shop around for small warships or gun boats. Or mount a gun pod on your planes. A rapid-firing 20mm cannon can do a significant amount of damage since they can use explosive shells. Yeah, you can pretty effectively and safely (to you) threaten un- or lightly-armed ships with a 1930s-vintage biplane. Don't need fancy or expensive equipment to do that, if you're willing to go so far as actually firing on violating vessels. A handful of cheap used Cessnas with light "dumb" bombs attached would probably be damn effective at getting fishing vessels to go away and not come back for a while, even—again, if you're willing to actually attack. It's got to be restraint, not cost, preventing damaging or sinking the violating vessels, even for fairly small nations.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Jap2-0 5y ago
For those who are unfamiliar: the title is a reference to the (satirical) novel The Mouse That Roared[0], about a small nation that declared war on the US and won. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

117 points by vijayr02 5y ago

Jsharm 5y ago

Sustainability clearly can be done so why isn't it?

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Capitalism and selfishness (pun unintended).
- ch4s3 5y ago
  It doesn’t have to be capitalism. Ships from countries with other economic systems have and do participate in illegal fishing. If you have hungry people, unproductive land, and tapped out fisheries of your own it might be tempting to sail into your neighbors waters.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    For a lot of illegal fishing it's not even neighbors' waters but waters of countries on the other side of the globe.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      Yes you're right but I meant neighbors in a loose sense of international community.
  - handrous 5y ago
    I'd assumed even (say) Chinese fishing fleets were capitalist enterprises. Are they government-owned, or are private-party to private-party transfers of fishing-related capital highly restricted?
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      Who could possibly even know for sure. But I think my point stands, as Vietnam has the 2nd or 3rd largest fishing fleet in the world right now, and for a few decades the Soviet Union was the 3rd largest. Pursuit of profit isn't the only reason for the tragedy of the fisheries held in common.
Spooky23 5y ago
Fish tomorrow doesn’t make money today. It’s literally a tragedy of the commons illustrated.

rich_sasha 5y ago

I was hoping the article would say something about enforcement. Isn't it a hard problem even for developed countries with well-equipped coastguards? The article doesn't paint a picture of countries able to do that. What if the Chinese fishing fleet arrives one day and says, "so long and thanks for all the fish"? Otherwise, good on them and sustainable fish, but this is not much different to OPEC or other cartels.

fallingknife 5y ago
No, enforcement is an easy problem. You sink violating ships. Fishermen will give your coastal waters a wide berth if they know there is even a 1% probability they will be killed. If you're not willing to sink ships then it's pretty much impossible.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Someone 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati#Law_enforcement_and_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati#Law_enforcement_and_m...: Kiribati has no military and relies on both Australia and New Zealand for its defence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea_Defence_Force#Maritime_Element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea_Defence_Force...: According to Janes the navy is badly underfunded and much of its equipment is in need of maintenance; as a consequence it is scarcely able to carry out its tasks, with operations often delayed or cancelled. The navy's patrol craft are barely effective; fuel costs and maintenance problems mean that often only one boat is available for sea duty at any time, while the heavy landing craft have high upkeep costs and are nearing the end of their service life. Although the patrol boats may be at times serviceable, the task of patrolling such a large Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) is too great and they are heavily reliant for information about the presence of foreign ships on daily reports supplied by US satellite surveillance. The main concern is illegal tuna fishing by Japanese vessels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands#Military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands#Military: the country has not had any regular military forces since independence. The various paramilitary elements of the Royal Solomon Islands Police Force (RSIPF) were disbanded and disarmed in 2003 following the intervention of the Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands (RAMSI). RAMSI has a small military detachment headed by an Australian commander with responsibilities for assisting the police element of RAMSI in internal and external security. The RSIPF still operates two Pacific class patrol boats (RSIPV Auki and RSIPV Lata), which constitute the de facto navy of Solomon Islands. I suspect the other countries have similar military power.

ricardobeat 5y ago

> the scheme has raised fishing revenues from $25m a decade ago to $160m, or $1,400 per capita It's hard to imagine just how much fishing is going on, when that amount per head is just skimming the total value of fish caught. The real question here is how did they actually made it work? Who enforces the rules? There are hundreds of foreign fishing boats plundering the coast of Argentina right now, and it's not for lack of agreements or regulations...

CyanBird 5y ago
> There are hundreds of foreign fishing boats plundering the coast of Argentina right now This has always been a problem, for Uruguay too, it has only come to the current level of attention because "the evil Chinese" are doing it these days as opposed to Vietnamese, Spanish, Brazilian, Portuguese, English or US trawlers which are still there turning off their transponders and raiding National waters But I very much agree, I would have quite liked to read more on the enforcement mechanisms to avoid delinquent fishing
- tartoran 5y ago
  Why don’t infiltrate the fleets and spoil the catch with some disturbing underwater sound that makes the fish flee? Im sure it’s not impossible to do that and it is not illegal either
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    Trawler fleets are huge and tow huge nets (or use floating nets). You can't really scare fish away because the volume swept by the nets is so huge. Driving off the fishermen is the only worthwhile solution.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, I dug up a list of EEZs, sorted by total area. Since it's mostly a function of coast distance, and especially of number and distribution of islands, it's definitely different than I expected. And shows some major gaps in area:GDP, if we're talking about enforcement. (Noting: different areas can be substantially different in fishery value) https://www.liquisearch.com/exclusive_economic_zone/rankings_by_area https://www.liquisearch.com/exclusive_economic_zone/rankings...

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

The mighty English navy used to take on unarmed fishing vessels. Lethally. The Dutch first came up with the concept of international waters but it took a few centuries before everyone was on board...

tigerlily 5y ago
I wonder what minimum size of steel billet can be dropped from space and punch a hole in a fishing vessel's hull?
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  You really don't need that. A few patrol boats, planes, or helicopters with one or more heavy machine guns would be plenty of deterrent. A few hundred bullets would be enough to smash the bridge of a small ship. On the cheap, you could have a small fleet of turboprop recon planes, each armed with a pair of machine guns. They aren't all that expensive to operate, use widely available ammunition and fuel and often don't require much more than a smooth stretch of dirt for takeoff. If that still isn't enough, shop around for small warships or gun boats. Or mount a gun pod on your planes. A rapid-firing 20mm cannon can do a significant amount of damage since they can use explosive shells. Even the largest US Coast Guard cutter is smaller than a WWII destroyer and outgunned by any warship larger than an inflatable raft. Edit: Heck. If you want an even cheaper solution, board ships with people carrying knives and guns like the 1700s. Modern pirates already do this.
  - handrous 5y ago
    > If that still isn't enough, shop around for small warships or gun boats. Or mount a gun pod on your planes. A rapid-firing 20mm cannon can do a significant amount of damage since they can use explosive shells. Yeah, you can pretty effectively and safely (to you) threaten un- or lightly-armed ships with a 1930s-vintage biplane. Don't need fancy or expensive equipment to do that, if you're willing to go so far as actually firing on violating vessels. A handful of cheap used Cessnas with light "dumb" bombs attached would probably be damn effective at getting fishing vessels to go away and not come back for a while, even—again, if you're willing to actually attack. It's got to be restraint, not cost, preventing damaging or sinking the violating vessels, even for fairly small nations.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Jap2-0 5y ago

For those who are unfamiliar: the title is a reference to the (satirical) novel The Mouse That Roared[0], about a small nation that declared war on the US and won. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared