4 ms·

Why do you not? No memory leaks, no security issues stemming from such. No random crashes from memory misuse, no issues debugging the issues that exist. It's li

Why do you not? No memory leaks, no security issues stemming from such. No random crashes from memory misuse, no issues debugging the issues that exist. It's like a higher level language but lower. You get to do things your way, except when your way is fundamentally unsafe. The code is then easier to debug as it actually describes what's happening and issues are mostly algorithmic, while the application gets a massive boost in reliability and security. Security is like the issue now, along with reliability. That's what people need and want. Rust offers that.

hnlmorg 5y ago
Rust isn't the only language that offers that. In fact most languages offer that. Even Pascal is safer than C. Or if we're really concerned about security then we should be advocating that out shells are written in Ada. But clearly there's more to it than that.... It's also worth remembering that the biggest causes of RCE in shells haven't been buffer overflows. It's been fundamental design problems from the outset (eg Bash executing functions in environmental variables (Shellshock) and CI/CD pipelines or other programs forking out to the shell without sanitising user input nor having sufficient RBAC in place). Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Rust. I think its fantastic that we're seeing diversity in the ecosystem. But we need to be careful not to judge a project simply because of its use of Rust (or choice of other language). The reality is soooo much more complicated and nuanced than is often made out in HN.
- pdpi 5y ago
  Maybe we could be writing things in ADA. I don’t know, it’s a language that’s been on my radar for several years but I haven’t actually dug into it yet. That said, we need something to replace C — and Rust seems to be picking up momentum. Rust seems good enough a replacement to me, and that’s enough for me to cheer it on. I do agree that “written in rust” isn’t as big a guarantee of quality as people here assume though.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    We've already had languages that could replace C. Ironically Pascal was replaced by C on home systems. But Rust isn't a C replacement, it's a C++ replacement. HN talks about Rust like there was a void before it but there wasn't. I think it's great that the community have finally gotten behind a safer language and I think Rust is a worthy candidate for the community to get behind. But I'm sick of reading about Rust as if it's a silver bullet. HN badly needs to get past this mindset that Rust is the only safe language (it is not), and that programs are automatically safer for being programmed in Rust (in some cases that might be true but in most cases it is not). I remember learning to program back in the days when people would mock developers for using structured control flow blocks because "GOTOs are good enough". While the Rust movement is, thankfully, the inverse of that in that people are questioning whether older, arcane, paradigms need to be disrupted, there is still a weird following surrounding Rust that has the same emotive worship without actually looking at the problems being discussed. People seriously suggesting everything should be written in Rust or harping on about the language as if its a one of a kind. There's plenty of domains that better suit other, safe, languages and there are plenty of developers who personally prefer using other, also safe, languages. Rust isn't the right tool for everything. And the fact that I've seen people advocate Rust ports of programs written in Haskell, OCaml and Go because "it's safer now it's rewritten in Rust" is a great demonstration for how absurd the cargo culting has become. My point isn't that Rust is a bad language or that people shouldn't be using it. Just that people need to calm down a little when discussing Rust. Take this case for instance: most shells out there these days are written in safe languages. The last dozen or so shells I've seen posted on HN been programmed in Python, LISP, Go, C# and Scala. It's really only the old boys like Bash and Zsh that are C++ applications. So Nushell isn't all that unique in that regard. But because its the only one out of a dozen that was written in Rust, it's the only shell what has a page of comments commending the authors for their choice of language. That's a little absurd don't you think?
    - detaro 5y ago
      > it's the only shell what has a page of comments commending the authors for their choice of language. There isn't "a page of comments commending the authors" here, so I have no clue what you are talking about? The main Rust discussion is in a subthread which someone specifically started by asking "why Rust", at which point you can't really fault the Rust fans for explaining why Rust.
pdpi 5y ago
Rust is perfectly happy to leak memory. Leaks are not considered unsafe. There was actually a bit of a reckoning around the 1.0 release where people widely assumed the language wouldn’t leak, and leaks were proven to be safe behaviour.
- kamray23 5y ago
  Oh? Perhaps I need to reconsider my past trust in Rust. In retrospect it makes sense, interop. without leaking memory would be damn near impossible. Still, I expect it to be very hard to do accidentally. In C all you need to do is have your mind blank for a moment. Which isn't that uncommon, especially if you're on crunch or something.
  - pdpi 5y ago
    So there's two things to talk about here. First, the language can't save you from getting the program semantics wrong (e.g. if you never delete an entry from a hashmap even after you're done with it, you're leaking that memory). No language can save you from leaks as a general concept. Second, Rust makes a very specific promise — freedom from data races. Leaking resources does not actually break that promise, because it doesn't allow you to access that resource any more.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Unintentional leaks are rare in Rust, the main issue is around reference counting loops not being cleaned up automatically. Future versions of Rust might even offer some support for unleakable 'relevant types' (the dual to the existing 'affine types' where leaks are not considered incorrect) for better support of very advanced, type-directed resource/state management.

hnlmorg 5y ago

Rust isn't the only language that offers that. In fact most languages offer that. Even Pascal is safer than C. Or if we're really concerned about security then we should be advocating that out shells are written in Ada. But clearly there's more to it than that.... It's also worth remembering that the biggest causes of RCE in shells haven't been buffer overflows. It's been fundamental design problems from the outset (eg Bash executing functions in environmental variables (Shellshock) and CI/CD pipelines or other programs forking out to the shell without sanitising user input nor having sufficient RBAC in place). Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Rust. I think its fantastic that we're seeing diversity in the ecosystem. But we need to be careful not to judge a project simply because of its use of Rust (or choice of other language). The reality is soooo much more complicated and nuanced than is often made out in HN.

pdpi 5y ago
Maybe we could be writing things in ADA. I don’t know, it’s a language that’s been on my radar for several years but I haven’t actually dug into it yet. That said, we need something to replace C — and Rust seems to be picking up momentum. Rust seems good enough a replacement to me, and that’s enough for me to cheer it on. I do agree that “written in rust” isn’t as big a guarantee of quality as people here assume though.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  We've already had languages that could replace C. Ironically Pascal was replaced by C on home systems. But Rust isn't a C replacement, it's a C++ replacement. HN talks about Rust like there was a void before it but there wasn't. I think it's great that the community have finally gotten behind a safer language and I think Rust is a worthy candidate for the community to get behind. But I'm sick of reading about Rust as if it's a silver bullet. HN badly needs to get past this mindset that Rust is the only safe language (it is not), and that programs are automatically safer for being programmed in Rust (in some cases that might be true but in most cases it is not). I remember learning to program back in the days when people would mock developers for using structured control flow blocks because "GOTOs are good enough". While the Rust movement is, thankfully, the inverse of that in that people are questioning whether older, arcane, paradigms need to be disrupted, there is still a weird following surrounding Rust that has the same emotive worship without actually looking at the problems being discussed. People seriously suggesting everything should be written in Rust or harping on about the language as if its a one of a kind. There's plenty of domains that better suit other, safe, languages and there are plenty of developers who personally prefer using other, also safe, languages. Rust isn't the right tool for everything. And the fact that I've seen people advocate Rust ports of programs written in Haskell, OCaml and Go because "it's safer now it's rewritten in Rust" is a great demonstration for how absurd the cargo culting has become. My point isn't that Rust is a bad language or that people shouldn't be using it. Just that people need to calm down a little when discussing Rust. Take this case for instance: most shells out there these days are written in safe languages. The last dozen or so shells I've seen posted on HN been programmed in Python, LISP, Go, C# and Scala. It's really only the old boys like Bash and Zsh that are C++ applications. So Nushell isn't all that unique in that regard. But because its the only one out of a dozen that was written in Rust, it's the only shell what has a page of comments commending the authors for their choice of language. That's a little absurd don't you think?
  - detaro 5y ago
    > it's the only shell what has a page of comments commending the authors for their choice of language. There isn't "a page of comments commending the authors" here, so I have no clue what you are talking about? The main Rust discussion is in a subthread which someone specifically started by asking "why Rust", at which point you can't really fault the Rust fans for explaining why Rust.

pdpi 5y ago

Rust is perfectly happy to leak memory. Leaks are not considered unsafe. There was actually a bit of a reckoning around the 1.0 release where people widely assumed the language wouldn’t leak, and leaks were proven to be safe behaviour.

kamray23 5y ago
Oh? Perhaps I need to reconsider my past trust in Rust. In retrospect it makes sense, interop. without leaking memory would be damn near impossible. Still, I expect it to be very hard to do accidentally. In C all you need to do is have your mind blank for a moment. Which isn't that uncommon, especially if you're on crunch or something.
- pdpi 5y ago
  So there's two things to talk about here. First, the language can't save you from getting the program semantics wrong (e.g. if you never delete an entry from a hashmap even after you're done with it, you're leaking that memory). No language can save you from leaks as a general concept. Second, Rust makes a very specific promise — freedom from data races. Leaking resources does not actually break that promise, because it doesn't allow you to access that resource any more.
zozbot234 5y ago
Unintentional leaks are rare in Rust, the main issue is around reference counting loops not being cleaned up automatically. Future versions of Rust might even offer some support for unleakable 'relevant types' (the dual to the existing 'affine types' where leaks are not considered incorrect) for better support of very advanced, type-directed resource/state management.