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I think it’s actually shocking how few people seem to agree with this. In particular, the speed with which most of the left pivoted to reverence for the “intell

I think it’s actually shocking how few people seem to agree with this. In particular, the speed with which most of the left pivoted to reverence for the “intelligence community” simply because it was politically expedient after 2016. How many times did we hear breathless tirades about how the president wasn’t “respecting” the recommendations of intelligence agencies, or leaking classified intelligence. As if democratic representative of the American people was responsible to the unelected agency heads instead of vice versa. I voted against Trump twice, but when you get to the point where not even POTUS has the right to challenge the CIA and NSA, you’re no longer living in a democracy.

yipbub 5y ago
I'm not convinced. The criticism against the agencies is that they grossly overstep their bounds and commit atrocities. Not that they have bad intel. Trump quite clearly saying whatever was politically expedient.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> In particular, the speed with which most of the left pivoted to reverence for the “intelligence community” simply because it was politically expedient after 2016. I think you are either confusing the Democratic center-right (whuch has always had reverence for the intelligence community and defense establishment) with “most of the left", or confusing opposing abnormally blatant political abuse of (and by political officials within) the national security apparatus with reverence for that same apparatus, or both.
- krrrh 5y ago
  Hm, I think GP is talking about how the left-of-center media in the NY Times & MSNBC called out goons like John Brennan and James Clapper for lying in front of congress about domestic surveillance and then lionized them because they were convenient enemies of Trump. You can relabel these left-of-center outlets as center-right but that’s not a common perspective.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    "Third-way Democrats" (a.k.a. "Blairites" across the pond) are an amalgam of left and right ideologies, designed to pander to both, as long as the voter is close enough to the center. Socially progressive, but just as hawkish as the right on anything else. Calling them "left-of-center" depends on which metric you're measuring - on social issues, you'd be right.
maybelsyrup 5y ago
I think this is one of the great propaganda successes of the last few years for any American institution (or set of institutions, which I guess better describes the intelligence community). That the US secret services (spy agencies) and secret police (FBI) have been able to wrap themselves in the flag and convince millions of alleged progressives that they're good and honorable and upright and sincere - and to do so so incredibly cheaply (John Brennan doesn't pay CNN to let him on prime time) - is bananas. They made Russiagate into QAnon for liberals in about 30 seconds and are now on their victory lap, laughing in our faces with the diverse woke CIA commercials [0]. In a way you have to respect it - it's like watching the Harlem Globetrotters. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkiDqYBHUw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkiDqYBHUw
pjc50 5y ago
> right to challenge the CIA and NSA Right to challenge with what, though? The president should not have the right to commit crimes then defy any investigation; see also Nixon and Reagan (Iran-Contra). The right for anyone to be above challenge is how you get crimes like the CIA's LSD brothels. There definitely were Russian agents running around having meetings with Republican-oriented organisations, e.g. https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721763041/exclusive-documents-detail-meetings-of-russians-with-treasury-federal-reserve https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721763041/exclusive-documents...
xtian 5y ago
Anyone who has reverence for the US intelligence apparatus is not on the left. They're liberal totalitarians and Western chauvinists.

yipbub 5y ago

I'm not convinced. The criticism against the agencies is that they grossly overstep their bounds and commit atrocities. Not that they have bad intel. Trump quite clearly saying whatever was politically expedient.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> In particular, the speed with which most of the left pivoted to reverence for the “intelligence community” simply because it was politically expedient after 2016. I think you are either confusing the Democratic center-right (whuch has always had reverence for the intelligence community and defense establishment) with “most of the left", or confusing opposing abnormally blatant political abuse of (and by political officials within) the national security apparatus with reverence for that same apparatus, or both.

krrrh 5y ago
Hm, I think GP is talking about how the left-of-center media in the NY Times & MSNBC called out goons like John Brennan and James Clapper for lying in front of congress about domestic surveillance and then lionized them because they were convenient enemies of Trump. You can relabel these left-of-center outlets as center-right but that’s not a common perspective.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  "Third-way Democrats" (a.k.a. "Blairites" across the pond) are an amalgam of left and right ideologies, designed to pander to both, as long as the voter is close enough to the center. Socially progressive, but just as hawkish as the right on anything else. Calling them "left-of-center" depends on which metric you're measuring - on social issues, you'd be right.

maybelsyrup 5y ago

I think this is one of the great propaganda successes of the last few years for any American institution (or set of institutions, which I guess better describes the intelligence community). That the US secret services (spy agencies) and secret police (FBI) have been able to wrap themselves in the flag and convince millions of alleged progressives that they're good and honorable and upright and sincere - and to do so so incredibly cheaply (John Brennan doesn't pay CNN to let him on prime time) - is bananas. They made Russiagate into QAnon for liberals in about 30 seconds and are now on their victory lap, laughing in our faces with the diverse woke CIA commercials [0]. In a way you have to respect it - it's like watching the Harlem Globetrotters. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkiDqYBHUw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkiDqYBHUw

pjc50 5y ago

> right to challenge the CIA and NSA Right to challenge with what, though? The president should not have the right to commit crimes then defy any investigation; see also Nixon and Reagan (Iran-Contra). The right for anyone to be above challenge is how you get crimes like the CIA's LSD brothels. There definitely were Russian agents running around having meetings with Republican-oriented organisations, e.g. https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721763041/exclusive-documents-detail-meetings-of-russians-with-treasury-federal-reserve https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721763041/exclusive-documents...

xtian 5y ago

Anyone who has reverence for the US intelligence apparatus is not on the left. They're liberal totalitarians and Western chauvinists.