5 ms·

It bothers me when they're quick to make empty efforts like this yet when it comes to doing anything that actually matters an overwhelming majority of them (on

It bothers me when they're quick to make empty efforts like this yet when it comes to doing anything that actually matters an overwhelming majority of them (on both sides) will vote against it.

seneca 5y ago
That's a feature, not a bug. No one cares about Juneteenth just like no one cares about Kwanza, so there's no disagreement, so it sails through. When people care, there's disagreement and deadlock. Change to things that actually matter is supposed to be slow and difficult in Government. Otherwise there would be constant change as either side managed to seize power, and our legal system would be completely unpredictable.
- jolux 5y ago
  > Change to things that actually matter is supposed to be slow and difficult in Government This is mostly only true of presidential systems, and a particular affliction of ours. Parliamentary systems are not like this, nor is there constant instability from too much change.
- bingidingi 5y ago
  Your use of "no one" here is a little on the nose.
- Larrikin 5y ago
  People care about Juneteenth like they care about MLK day, there's no cultural significance to Kwanzaa.
  - artichokes 5y ago
    https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=juneteenth,kwanzaa https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=j... Looks like Kwanzaa was bigger until 2018 when Juneteenth first started getting promoted.
    - bilbo0s 5y ago
      Juneteenth has been promoted a whole lot longer than since 2018. At least in the cities I used to go to. That said, I'm from the upper midwest. Views on Juneteenth are probably different, particularly in certain other parts of the country.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  The American system was not intended to be as dysfunctional as it is. Its present state is a consequence of primary elections, which were a terrible idea created by people much dumber than the Founders.
  - lupire 5y ago
    The American system was intended to be torn up and redesigned by 1800 and every 20yrs afterward.
    - krapp 5y ago
      No it wasn't. Thomas Jefferson said he hoped the United States wouldn't be without a revolution like Shay's Rebellion every 20 years, but in the context of the letter in which he made that quote, he certainly didn't consider such an event to be legitimate. He was speaking to the spirit of revolution in the American people, not the intended design of the government. If the American system were actually intended to operate as you describe, that intent would have been put into the Constitution.
      - ILMostro7 5y ago
        Maybe they couldn't get it ratified or just wanted to stay in politics for more than 20 years. All lame sarcasm aside, that's a great clarification. Thanks
  - loonster 5y ago
    I would support ratifying article in the first. The only amendment of the original 12 that hasn't been ratified. One representative for every 50k citizens. Clearly the building isnt big enough to hold all those representatives. Force them to work remote and live near their people.
JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
Election reform seems like a meaningful issue to tackle: what could be more fundamental to our Democracy? Democrats seem poised to make their best effort, but it's extremely difficult to do with 50+1 votes in the Senate. I wouldn't characterize D's as not doing anything on this specific issue.
- nielsbot 5y ago
  Their "best effort" would be to change the filibuster and get it done. You're talking about the current voting reform bill(s)? Manchin is taking the heat for holding this up, but the problem is broader than that: There are a handful of Dems (at least) whose sponsors also don't want this bill to pass, so I'm not holding my breath for any reform happening in this area. And where are Biden and Schumer? They are pretty quiet on this whole situation.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
    Biden and Schumer can't unilaterally decide Manchin's vote for him. This is a democracy, after all. Conversations are likely happening behind closed doors. So we shouldn't critique Democratic leadership just yet.
    - favorited 5y ago
      And, if they piss off Manchin or try to punish him for not getting in line, all he has to do is change parties. Then Mitch McConnell is Majority Leader again, and no one gets anything.
  - memling 5y ago
    > Their "best effort" would be to change the filibuster and get it done. This seems like an iffy proposal. Changing most judicial nominations to simple majority has had a significant impact on the judiciary. Eliminating the filibuster for potentially short-lived gains while handing opposition a nearly blank check for future legislative victories seems like a long-term problem. It seems likely to exacerbate political tensions rather than relieve them. One can argue that the deliberate nature of the Senate is inimical to justice and therefore has to change, but when the pendulum swings in the other direction it may prove to move too rapidly to injustice.
vgel 5y ago
I agree that it's frustrating that other efforts aren't being made, and this is easier, but I disagree it's an empty effort. Holidays, statues, rituals -- they're how we define ourselves as a society. They're important. Imagine how people would react if we tried to get rid of MLK day, or President's day, or the extreme negative reaction to proposals to cede Mt. Rushmore? They're symbols of the American national identity, for better or worse. If you're interested, I highly recommend the youtube channel Religion for Breakfast's series on American Civic Religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x49n90lWi0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x49n90lWi0s .
- dalbasal 5y ago
  There's a difference between empty and symbolic.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  I dislike this holiday from a purely linguistic point of view. Having a national holiday be named after the portmanteau of June and nineteenth seems like juvenile naming. Was there really no better name for this day?
  - geofft 5y ago
    "Juneteenth" has been used for the celebration for over a century, and the name by which various sub-federal governments have recognized it, and I think a law recognizing a particular holiday probably should not rename the holiday while it does so. That said, "Emancipation Day" has also been historically used.
  - moate 5y ago
    It's what the holiday has been called for 150+ years, and a bunch of (likely) white politicians deciding to rename something the black community created seems antithetical to the idea of the holiday. Reflect on why you dislike this holiday and the difference between its name and "Christmas". Language is fluid and will survive. It's fine. This is a bad take.
    - 5y ago
DFHippie 5y ago
> when it comes to doing anything that actually matters an overwhelming majority of them (on both sides) will vote against it Do you have any evidence that both sides are equally guilty? This is the sort of thing that "everyone knows is true", but they "know" it because it allows them to express resignation and cynicism and get general agreement without offending anyone. It's like talking about the weather. But unlike talking about the weather it has the pernicious effect of dampening democratic action and rewarding the guilty. If a referee refuses to apply the rules of the game, throwing up his hands instead and saying "they all just foul each other all the time", how long do you think the game will have any rules? In a democracy the voters are the ultimate referees. In this particular case, in the US, one side very much wants to fix the flaws in their democracy. Why? Well, in part because it's the right thing to do and in part because they are the ones disadvantaged by the flaws in the current system. If given the chance to vote the Democrats will pass a bill of sweeping electoral reforms with the net effect of equalizing voting power and thus giving themselves a better chance of winning elections. But Republicans will filibuster this legislation, so it won't happen. If by some miracle the filibuster is abandoned, not one will vote for it. On this issue the two sides are diametrically opposed, not equally guilty, whatever you think of the merits of their positions.

It bothers me when they're quick to make empty efforts like this yet when it comes to doing anything that actually matters an overwhelming majority of them (on both sides) will vote against it.

seneca 5y ago

That's a feature, not a bug. No one cares about Juneteenth just like no one cares about Kwanza, so there's no disagreement, so it sails through. When people care, there's disagreement and deadlock. Change to things that actually matter is supposed to be slow and difficult in Government. Otherwise there would be constant change as either side managed to seize power, and our legal system would be completely unpredictable.

jolux 5y ago
> Change to things that actually matter is supposed to be slow and difficult in Government This is mostly only true of presidential systems, and a particular affliction of ours. Parliamentary systems are not like this, nor is there constant instability from too much change.
bingidingi 5y ago
Your use of "no one" here is a little on the nose.
Larrikin 5y ago
People care about Juneteenth like they care about MLK day, there's no cultural significance to Kwanzaa.
- artichokes 5y ago
  https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=juneteenth,kwanzaa https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=j... Looks like Kwanzaa was bigger until 2018 when Juneteenth first started getting promoted.
  - bilbo0s 5y ago
    Juneteenth has been promoted a whole lot longer than since 2018. At least in the cities I used to go to. That said, I'm from the upper midwest. Views on Juneteenth are probably different, particularly in certain other parts of the country.
spoonjim 5y ago
The American system was not intended to be as dysfunctional as it is. Its present state is a consequence of primary elections, which were a terrible idea created by people much dumber than the Founders.
- lupire 5y ago
  The American system was intended to be torn up and redesigned by 1800 and every 20yrs afterward.
  - krapp 5y ago
    No it wasn't. Thomas Jefferson said he hoped the United States wouldn't be without a revolution like Shay's Rebellion every 20 years, but in the context of the letter in which he made that quote, he certainly didn't consider such an event to be legitimate. He was speaking to the spirit of revolution in the American people, not the intended design of the government. If the American system were actually intended to operate as you describe, that intent would have been put into the Constitution.
    - ILMostro7 5y ago
      Maybe they couldn't get it ratified or just wanted to stay in politics for more than 20 years. All lame sarcasm aside, that's a great clarification. Thanks
- loonster 5y ago
  I would support ratifying article in the first. The only amendment of the original 12 that hasn't been ratified. One representative for every 50k citizens. Clearly the building isnt big enough to hold all those representatives. Force them to work remote and live near their people.

JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago

Election reform seems like a meaningful issue to tackle: what could be more fundamental to our Democracy? Democrats seem poised to make their best effort, but it's extremely difficult to do with 50+1 votes in the Senate. I wouldn't characterize D's as not doing anything on this specific issue.

nielsbot 5y ago
Their "best effort" would be to change the filibuster and get it done. You're talking about the current voting reform bill(s)? Manchin is taking the heat for holding this up, but the problem is broader than that: There are a handful of Dems (at least) whose sponsors also don't want this bill to pass, so I'm not holding my breath for any reform happening in this area. And where are Biden and Schumer? They are pretty quiet on this whole situation.
- JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
  Biden and Schumer can't unilaterally decide Manchin's vote for him. This is a democracy, after all. Conversations are likely happening behind closed doors. So we shouldn't critique Democratic leadership just yet.
  - favorited 5y ago
    And, if they piss off Manchin or try to punish him for not getting in line, all he has to do is change parties. Then Mitch McConnell is Majority Leader again, and no one gets anything.
- memling 5y ago
  > Their "best effort" would be to change the filibuster and get it done. This seems like an iffy proposal. Changing most judicial nominations to simple majority has had a significant impact on the judiciary. Eliminating the filibuster for potentially short-lived gains while handing opposition a nearly blank check for future legislative victories seems like a long-term problem. It seems likely to exacerbate political tensions rather than relieve them. One can argue that the deliberate nature of the Senate is inimical to justice and therefore has to change, but when the pendulum swings in the other direction it may prove to move too rapidly to injustice.

vgel 5y ago

I agree that it's frustrating that other efforts aren't being made, and this is easier, but I disagree it's an empty effort. Holidays, statues, rituals -- they're how we define ourselves as a society. They're important. Imagine how people would react if we tried to get rid of MLK day, or President's day, or the extreme negative reaction to proposals to cede Mt. Rushmore? They're symbols of the American national identity, for better or worse. If you're interested, I highly recommend the youtube channel Religion for Breakfast's series on American Civic Religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x49n90lWi0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x49n90lWi0s .

dalbasal 5y ago
There's a difference between empty and symbolic.
koheripbal 5y ago
I dislike this holiday from a purely linguistic point of view. Having a national holiday be named after the portmanteau of June and nineteenth seems like juvenile naming. Was there really no better name for this day?
- geofft 5y ago
  "Juneteenth" has been used for the celebration for over a century, and the name by which various sub-federal governments have recognized it, and I think a law recognizing a particular holiday probably should not rename the holiday while it does so. That said, "Emancipation Day" has also been historically used.
- moate 5y ago
  It's what the holiday has been called for 150+ years, and a bunch of (likely) white politicians deciding to rename something the black community created seems antithetical to the idea of the holiday. Reflect on why you dislike this holiday and the difference between its name and "Christmas". Language is fluid and will survive. It's fine. This is a bad take.
  - 5y ago

DFHippie 5y ago

> when it comes to doing anything that actually matters an overwhelming majority of them (on both sides) will vote against it Do you have any evidence that both sides are equally guilty? This is the sort of thing that "everyone knows is true", but they "know" it because it allows them to express resignation and cynicism and get general agreement without offending anyone. It's like talking about the weather. But unlike talking about the weather it has the pernicious effect of dampening democratic action and rewarding the guilty. If a referee refuses to apply the rules of the game, throwing up his hands instead and saying "they all just foul each other all the time", how long do you think the game will have any rules? In a democracy the voters are the ultimate referees. In this particular case, in the US, one side very much wants to fix the flaws in their democracy. Why? Well, in part because it's the right thing to do and in part because they are the ones disadvantaged by the flaws in the current system. If given the chance to vote the Democrats will pass a bill of sweeping electoral reforms with the net effect of equalizing voting power and thus giving themselves a better chance of winning elections. But Republicans will filibuster this legislation, so it won't happen. If by some miracle the filibuster is abandoned, not one will vote for it. On this issue the two sides are diametrically opposed, not equally guilty, whatever you think of the merits of their positions.