4 ms·

Yeah, from what I understand of flight operations "inability to transmit weather information" via their in-house computer system shouldn't be a showstopper for

Yeah, from what I understand of flight operations "inability to transmit weather information" via their in-house computer system shouldn't be a showstopper for thousands of flights nationwide. It wasn't so long ago that pilots weather info was just a print out. I'm not a commercial pilot but would love if someone who is could post a plausible hypothesis how this would ground the whole fleet (short of a simple bureaucratic decision to shut down if everything isn't working exactly normally).

kencausey 5y ago
Pure speculation: perhaps the FAA requirements on weather updates has changed since paper weather reports were standard? edit: s/FFA/FAA/
imadethis 5y ago
Each commercial flight in the US is required to file a flight plan before takeoff. This flight plan is created and approved by an FAA licensed dispatcher, who then tracks the progress of the flight and develops alternative routing as necessary. An important part of the flight plan is weather conditions along the route. There are obvious safety concerns, but weather conditions are also responsible for the route chosen, the amount of fuel onboard the plane, and passenger comfort. Without weather information, the flight plan cannot be filed and the plane cannot fly. Keep in mind that there are specific regulatory standards that must be met with any information included in the flight plan. A pilot cannot simply open up the weather app on their phone for instance. The weather info needs to come from an approved source. I have no specific information about Southwest's current issue, but my guess is the third party service they use for weather in the flight plan is out of service. If they can't transmit this info to aircraft in the air or on the ground, then nobody gets to fly today. I'm also guessing that an incident like this will result in backup solutions being put into place, and that there is an IT or systems engineer somewhere who is trying to hide their "I told you so" expression. Edit: an example flight plan can be found here: https://www.simbrief.com/system/guide.php#ofpsample https://www.simbrief.com/system/guide.php#ofpsample. This is from a site for sim pilots, but the format of the brief is the same as what a commercial airline would file for a flight.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  So if a plane is in flight (and I'm sure some were), and the weather system goes down, then what? Stick with the previous plan? Divert?
  - bombcar 5y ago
    In-flight weather by radio is an option but it’s a manual thing. And the airline may not be set up to use that except an emergency situation.
    - _s 5y ago
      It is a requirement - AWIS/ATIS and ATC/Tower (all via radio) can provide weather information at airfields, and a lot of instrument approaches do require certain readings before an approach can be commenced.
  - imadethis 5y ago
    I don't think the equipment to receive weather updates is on the Minimum Equipment List, but if dispatch couldn't even update over the radio then I would imagine they would start diverting flights. This is just a guess, hopefully someone with more knowledge can jump in here.
    - _s 5y ago
      It depends on the airframe - but I believe for Airline Transport category aircraft a storm scope and a few others are required.
  - kayfox 5y ago
    In flight weather can be observed (most airliners have weather radar onboard) and the pilots can check on weather along their route with controllers and at the destination or in specific places by electronic inquiry.
  - Wistar 5y ago
    There is also the PIREPS (Pilot Reports) system where pilots report actual weather conditions as encountered by an aircraft in flight. Some aircraft have automated weather reporting systems (AMDAR). https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Pilot_Report_(PIREP) https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Pilot_Report_(PIREP)
ramesh31 5y ago
> It wasn't so long ago that pilots weather info was just a print out. It also wasn't so long ago that scheduled domestic US airliners crashed on a fairly regular basis. That doesn't happen anymore because of advances in technology, this just being one little piece of that.
- RedShift1 5y ago
  Yeah, people sometimes don't seem to understand that a lot of rules are written in blood.
feedthemorlock 5y ago
I was on one of these flights, and the pilot told us that they actually had the weather information available to them on their iPad. He said the systems that failed were the ones actually creating the physical printout, which the FAA required for takeoff.
- mrandish 5y ago
  That actually makes a fair bit of sense. The FAA probably wouldn't have "safety rated" a retail iPad as meeting the primary requirement. The iPad is considered the backup but probably what they use day to day and the printout is technically the primary. So, no printout, no takeoff.

kencausey 5y ago

Pure speculation: perhaps the FAA requirements on weather updates has changed since paper weather reports were standard? edit: s/FFA/FAA/

imadethis 5y ago

Each commercial flight in the US is required to file a flight plan before takeoff. This flight plan is created and approved by an FAA licensed dispatcher, who then tracks the progress of the flight and develops alternative routing as necessary. An important part of the flight plan is weather conditions along the route. There are obvious safety concerns, but weather conditions are also responsible for the route chosen, the amount of fuel onboard the plane, and passenger comfort. Without weather information, the flight plan cannot be filed and the plane cannot fly. Keep in mind that there are specific regulatory standards that must be met with any information included in the flight plan. A pilot cannot simply open up the weather app on their phone for instance. The weather info needs to come from an approved source. I have no specific information about Southwest's current issue, but my guess is the third party service they use for weather in the flight plan is out of service. If they can't transmit this info to aircraft in the air or on the ground, then nobody gets to fly today. I'm also guessing that an incident like this will result in backup solutions being put into place, and that there is an IT or systems engineer somewhere who is trying to hide their "I told you so" expression. Edit: an example flight plan can be found here: https://www.simbrief.com/system/guide.php#ofpsample https://www.simbrief.com/system/guide.php#ofpsample. This is from a site for sim pilots, but the format of the brief is the same as what a commercial airline would file for a flight.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
So if a plane is in flight (and I'm sure some were), and the weather system goes down, then what? Stick with the previous plan? Divert?
- bombcar 5y ago
  In-flight weather by radio is an option but it’s a manual thing. And the airline may not be set up to use that except an emergency situation.
  - _s 5y ago
    It is a requirement - AWIS/ATIS and ATC/Tower (all via radio) can provide weather information at airfields, and a lot of instrument approaches do require certain readings before an approach can be commenced.
- imadethis 5y ago
  I don't think the equipment to receive weather updates is on the Minimum Equipment List, but if dispatch couldn't even update over the radio then I would imagine they would start diverting flights. This is just a guess, hopefully someone with more knowledge can jump in here.
  - _s 5y ago
    It depends on the airframe - but I believe for Airline Transport category aircraft a storm scope and a few others are required.
- kayfox 5y ago
  In flight weather can be observed (most airliners have weather radar onboard) and the pilots can check on weather along their route with controllers and at the destination or in specific places by electronic inquiry.
- Wistar 5y ago
  There is also the PIREPS (Pilot Reports) system where pilots report actual weather conditions as encountered by an aircraft in flight. Some aircraft have automated weather reporting systems (AMDAR). https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Pilot_Report_(PIREP) https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Pilot_Report_(PIREP)

ramesh31 5y ago

> It wasn't so long ago that pilots weather info was just a print out. It also wasn't so long ago that scheduled domestic US airliners crashed on a fairly regular basis. That doesn't happen anymore because of advances in technology, this just being one little piece of that.

RedShift1 5y ago
Yeah, people sometimes don't seem to understand that a lot of rules are written in blood.

feedthemorlock 5y ago

I was on one of these flights, and the pilot told us that they actually had the weather information available to them on their iPad. He said the systems that failed were the ones actually creating the physical printout, which the FAA required for takeoff.

mrandish 5y ago
That actually makes a fair bit of sense. The FAA probably wouldn't have "safety rated" a retail iPad as meeting the primary requirement. The iPad is considered the backup but probably what they use day to day and the printout is technically the primary. So, no printout, no takeoff.