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The long-term operational strategy of the CCP (and probably every other foreign hostile power) is clear. Backdoor all critical and vital systems. Keep finger on

The long-term operational strategy of the CCP (and probably every other foreign hostile power) is clear. Backdoor all critical and vital systems. Keep finger on button. Presumably, our folks at the NSA are doing the same. This becomes the new MAD doctrine.

magicsmoke 5y ago
It's not exactly like MAD because with MAD everyone has an accurate idea of how many nukes they have and the resulting destruction if they're exchanged. With cyberattacks you can't get an accurate idea of how backdoored your systems are, because if you did you would patch it. As a result, countries underestimate the damage they would take from retaliation and are more willing to use their collection of backdoors to create chaos at key moments. If nuclear MAD leans towards deterrence, cyberattacks lean towards escalation.
- drak0n1c 5y ago
  There's also the question of attribution. Proxies and manipulated metadata can misdirect the retaliation onto a different actor.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  Well, kinda. The actors have different playbooks. America's is "get in as quietly and as targeted as possible, and make the damage look like random equipment failing." Which makes sense. If they wanted to do value targeting at a wide scale they'd use a nuke or what have you. The mobility the domain of cyber gives them is deniability and operational security, not capability since they can basically bomb anywhere on the planet in under an hour. The dragnet stuff is done via MITM attacks or with friendlies like telcom and tech companies. With the DPRK it's completely different. They don't have multiple points of access on the global internet. They don't have the worlds best military jets or satellites. Sure they have a few nukes, but they can be intercepted, so getting access to critical infrastructure is something they would value in the first minutes of a war with America. But I agree with your overall premiss. In cyber you can't get a completely accurate idea of how backdoored your systems are. There is more observability here than people give credit for, because we hack the hackers to figure out their access levels then monitor the intruded on systems, but ultimately it's unknowable just what percentage of our systems are compromised and even if we could somehow know the degree of compromization, it wouldn't matter because a previously unused, wormable 0day could infect whole classes of systems we thought were secure.
  - eric-hu 5y ago
    Did you mean China instead of DPRK? That’s what this article is about. Also, I think China does have multiple points of access to the internet, and is catching up with the world’s best jets and satellites (but not entirely caught up).
    - 3pt14159 5y ago
      No I meant the DPRK. I don't know enough about the Chinese military to comment on their strategy, other than the stuff everyone knows like "hide our capacity, and bide your time" which is clearly what they're doing (or at least, trying to do) during their ascent. But I've been following the DPRK for a while, and their cyber strategy is more obvious.
akomtu 5y ago
They have backdoored our society already. We're trying to export capitalism, they are trying to export communism.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  China today has as much to do with communism as the American dream is alive and well...

magicsmoke 5y ago

It's not exactly like MAD because with MAD everyone has an accurate idea of how many nukes they have and the resulting destruction if they're exchanged. With cyberattacks you can't get an accurate idea of how backdoored your systems are, because if you did you would patch it. As a result, countries underestimate the damage they would take from retaliation and are more willing to use their collection of backdoors to create chaos at key moments. If nuclear MAD leans towards deterrence, cyberattacks lean towards escalation.

drak0n1c 5y ago
There's also the question of attribution. Proxies and manipulated metadata can misdirect the retaliation onto a different actor.
3pt14159 5y ago
Well, kinda. The actors have different playbooks. America's is "get in as quietly and as targeted as possible, and make the damage look like random equipment failing." Which makes sense. If they wanted to do value targeting at a wide scale they'd use a nuke or what have you. The mobility the domain of cyber gives them is deniability and operational security, not capability since they can basically bomb anywhere on the planet in under an hour. The dragnet stuff is done via MITM attacks or with friendlies like telcom and tech companies. With the DPRK it's completely different. They don't have multiple points of access on the global internet. They don't have the worlds best military jets or satellites. Sure they have a few nukes, but they can be intercepted, so getting access to critical infrastructure is something they would value in the first minutes of a war with America. But I agree with your overall premiss. In cyber you can't get a completely accurate idea of how backdoored your systems are. There is more observability here than people give credit for, because we hack the hackers to figure out their access levels then monitor the intruded on systems, but ultimately it's unknowable just what percentage of our systems are compromised and even if we could somehow know the degree of compromization, it wouldn't matter because a previously unused, wormable 0day could infect whole classes of systems we thought were secure.
- eric-hu 5y ago
  Did you mean China instead of DPRK? That’s what this article is about. Also, I think China does have multiple points of access to the internet, and is catching up with the world’s best jets and satellites (but not entirely caught up).
  - 3pt14159 5y ago
    No I meant the DPRK. I don't know enough about the Chinese military to comment on their strategy, other than the stuff everyone knows like "hide our capacity, and bide your time" which is clearly what they're doing (or at least, trying to do) during their ascent. But I've been following the DPRK for a while, and their cyber strategy is more obvious.

akomtu 5y ago

They have backdoored our society already. We're trying to export capitalism, they are trying to export communism.

estaseuropano 5y ago
China today has as much to do with communism as the American dream is alive and well...