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>There's a strong current of nationalist exceptionalism that could use a counter-narrative (or a reality check). To what purpose? Do you believe that it would

>There's a strong current of nationalist exceptionalism that could use a counter-narrative (or a reality check). To what purpose? Do you believe that it would result in a happier and more successful populace/world? If so, what is the foundation for that belief? If not, again, why? I'd argue these counter-narratives already exist, so why do we need a new one/more of them/them to be stronger?

WaxProlix 5y ago
> To what purpose? ? Do you believe that it would result in a happier and more successful populace/world? No, just in the interest of promoting a varied selection of ideological opinions and in support of the search for truth. > I'd argue these counter-narratives already exist, so why do we need a new one/more of them/them to be stronger? My contention is exactly that they are insufficiently represented in the current cultural zeitgeist! You're free to disagree, but the context here is that the parent post expressed an interest in 'signal boosting' this narrative, and I was agreeing. Sounds like you disagree.
- ameister14 5y ago
  >No, just in the interest of promoting a varied selection of ideological opinions and in support of the search for truth. I get that, makes sense. I don't think what the gp said was consistent with that, though. I think that if your goal is to boost the viewpoint that the USA should be an example of a country no one else should aspire to be while also attempting to support the search for truth, hypocrisy shouldn't really play into it much, unless of course that is the sole reason you find the actions of the US distasteful. For me, whether you killed people and then pretended it was for the greater good or just killed them, the chief crime is murder, not lying about it. The reasons not to aspire to be like the US are the same as the reasons not to aspire to be like the UK, France, Spain, Russia etc. Highlighting them as unique to the US wouldn't appear to improve the varied selection of ideological opinions (a lot of people already don't like the US) and certainly doesn't improve the level of truth present. I'd also argue that doing so would be playing into a different type of the same exceptionalism. Nationalist exceptionalism created a foundation for the US to do things nobody had done before. Unfortunately, the US also did things a lot of countries had done before and it should definitely be noted that those things are not exceptional nor are they particularly good for the idealized nation.

WaxProlix 5y ago

> To what purpose? ? Do you believe that it would result in a happier and more successful populace/world? No, just in the interest of promoting a varied selection of ideological opinions and in support of the search for truth. > I'd argue these counter-narratives already exist, so why do we need a new one/more of them/them to be stronger? My contention is exactly that they are insufficiently represented in the current cultural zeitgeist! You're free to disagree, but the context here is that the parent post expressed an interest in 'signal boosting' this narrative, and I was agreeing. Sounds like you disagree.

ameister14 5y ago
>No, just in the interest of promoting a varied selection of ideological opinions and in support of the search for truth. I get that, makes sense. I don't think what the gp said was consistent with that, though. I think that if your goal is to boost the viewpoint that the USA should be an example of a country no one else should aspire to be while also attempting to support the search for truth, hypocrisy shouldn't really play into it much, unless of course that is the sole reason you find the actions of the US distasteful. For me, whether you killed people and then pretended it was for the greater good or just killed them, the chief crime is murder, not lying about it. The reasons not to aspire to be like the US are the same as the reasons not to aspire to be like the UK, France, Spain, Russia etc. Highlighting them as unique to the US wouldn't appear to improve the varied selection of ideological opinions (a lot of people already don't like the US) and certainly doesn't improve the level of truth present. I'd also argue that doing so would be playing into a different type of the same exceptionalism. Nationalist exceptionalism created a foundation for the US to do things nobody had done before. Unfortunately, the US also did things a lot of countries had done before and it should definitely be noted that those things are not exceptional nor are they particularly good for the idealized nation.