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Just like with UK spy cops, it's, rightly, considered rape to have sex with someone under false pretences... But this is the CIA we're talking about, I'm sure t

Just like with UK spy cops, it's, rightly, considered rape to have sex with someone under false pretences... But this is the CIA we're talking about, I'm sure they've committed atrocities they themselves would consider to be rape.

zepto 5y ago
> it's, rightly, considered rape to have sex with someone under false pretences. What are you talking about? Rape is forced sex. Lying to someone about who you are is not use of force.
- mc32 5y ago
  I think some places like Sweden might consider that rape. Recall the Assange [accusation of rape] where not wearing a condom when he had indicated he had resulted in it being seen as rape (even when the 'witness' withdrew the accusation)?
  - sneak 5y ago
    There was no "Assange trial" in Sweden. More than that, Sweden didn't even charge him with a crime at all.
    - mc32 5y ago
      I never mentioned anything about a trial; however he was accused of rape[1] because he did not wear a condom during sex. [1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/women-and-justice/resource/assange_v_swedish_prosecution_authority_2011_ewhc_2849 https://www.law.cornell.edu/women-and-justice/resource/assan...
      - pmoriarty 5y ago
        "he was accused of rape because he did not wear a condom during sex" According to the very article you link to his wearing of a condom was only an aggravating circumstance, and not the primary reason for the charge of rape. The primary reason was that he had sex with the woman while she was asleep, in a helpless state (in which she could not give consent). Here's the full quote: "Mr. Assange visited Sweden to give a lecture. He had sexual relations with two women there. In the home of the injured party, Assange deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state. It is an aggravating circumstance that Assange, who was aware that it was the expressed wish of the injured party and a prerequisite of sexual intercourse that a condom be used, still consummated unprotected sexual intercourse with her. The sexual act was designed to violate the injured party's sexual integrity. Mr. Assange was accused of rape. Allegedly, the women agreed to sex on the condition Mr. Assange wear a condom. He did not do so throughout intercourse. Although the English courts had previously ruled that one cannot give conditional consent, in order to be able to allow extradition to Sweden, the Supreme Court ruled that his actions would constitute a crime under English law - thus allowing conditional consent to become valid in English law." And to describe even just the aggravating circumstance described here as merely "not wearing a condom" omits that the reason for it being a problem: because Assange knew the woman would not have sex without a condom. So (if true) there are 2 reasons to think he was having sex without consent, which is rape.
        sneak 5y ago
        > primary reason for the charge of rape. > The primary reason was Assange was not charged. Please stop spreading this falsehood.
      - sneak 5y ago
        > Recall the Assange trial where Yes, you did.
        mc32 5y ago
        Apologies, fixed.
        sneak 5y ago
        You "fixed" it to a rape accusation; Assange was also not accused of rape by anyone in Sweden.
        mc32 5y ago
        You’re saying he wasn’t accused of rape? Cornell has it wrong ?
        sneak 5y ago
        If you believe the opposite, please name the name of the natural person so accusing him, and quote them specifically. No victims, nor officials, have accused him of any such thing. The arrest warrant that was issued was because he was wanted for questioning/investigation, and the direct statements of the women involved in the matter are very illuminating.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  I think manipulation for sex can be rape too in the right context
- admash 5y ago
  "Rape: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception." Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape The key point being "valid consent" and its contravention by deception. i.e. It's not valid if what you are consenting to is a lie, namely who you think you are having sex with.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Interesting. The problem with that definition is that it doesn’t define what kinds of deception are sufficient to make sex qualify as rape. Does any lie automatically turn sex into rape, or are there limits, e.g. only if you lie about working for the state? Why for example would not disclosing that you are a cop be different from not disclosing that you are a doctor or an engineer?
    - beaugunderson 5y ago
      HIV status is one concrete example; in Michigan for example non-disclosure is a felony.
      - zepto 5y ago
        A felony, but not rape. One which wouldn’t need to be on the books if merely lying about yourself constituted rape. This entire idea that merely lying about who you before sex are constitutes rape is simply not true. Certain deceptions may be crimes, but that is completely different.
  - zokula 5y ago
    If that's the case, women are more likely to be rapists then men. And I also raped hunreds of women.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Rape is sex without consent. If you have sex with someone because you think you're in love with them and they're in love with you, but in fact they're not who you thought they were but they're just putting on an act, don't love you, and are using you then it's most definitely rape because you haven't given consent to have sex with someone you don't actually know and who's deceiving you in the most despicable way.
  - setr 5y ago
    Eh this gets really iffy really fast. What becomes of casual hookups or third-dates, where both sides are running almost entirely on false pretenses, incomplete truths, and a swath of assumptions? What turns it into villainy is the explicit intent to deceive for nefarious purposes, but calling it rape feels like a serious dilution of the word
  - refurb 5y ago
    No, that’s not rape at all. That’s kind of ridiculous to make that claim and doesn’t even hold up to logical scrutiny.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>it's, rightly, considered rape to have sex with someone under false pretenses Like saying you're on birth control when you're not? Firstly, that's not the legal or common usage definition or rape anywhere that I know of. (I'm sure some jurisdiction somewhere includes it as a catchall though.) Secondly, I don't understand how someone can say "rightly" with a straight face. People lie or stretch the truth to comical levels about age, marital status, number of prior partners, employment/wealth, etc. in order to get laid all the time. A man or woman pretending to be someone they're not in order to reel in a partner they couldn't otherwise is a pretty universal trope across cultures. Unethical? Yes. But I don't think anyone considers that sexual assault let alone rape. I'm pretty sure it was Dave Chappelle who said "you faked your orgasm but I faked my entire personality".

zepto 5y ago

> it's, rightly, considered rape to have sex with someone under false pretences. What are you talking about? Rape is forced sex. Lying to someone about who you are is not use of force.

mc32 5y ago
I think some places like Sweden might consider that rape. Recall the Assange [accusation of rape] where not wearing a condom when he had indicated he had resulted in it being seen as rape (even when the 'witness' withdrew the accusation)?
- sneak 5y ago
  There was no "Assange trial" in Sweden. More than that, Sweden didn't even charge him with a crime at all.
  - mc32 5y ago
    I never mentioned anything about a trial; however he was accused of rape[1] because he did not wear a condom during sex. [1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/women-and-justice/resource/assange_v_swedish_prosecution_authority_2011_ewhc_2849 https://www.law.cornell.edu/women-and-justice/resource/assan...
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      "he was accused of rape because he did not wear a condom during sex" According to the very article you link to his wearing of a condom was only an aggravating circumstance, and not the primary reason for the charge of rape. The primary reason was that he had sex with the woman while she was asleep, in a helpless state (in which she could not give consent). Here's the full quote: "Mr. Assange visited Sweden to give a lecture. He had sexual relations with two women there. In the home of the injured party, Assange deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state. It is an aggravating circumstance that Assange, who was aware that it was the expressed wish of the injured party and a prerequisite of sexual intercourse that a condom be used, still consummated unprotected sexual intercourse with her. The sexual act was designed to violate the injured party's sexual integrity. Mr. Assange was accused of rape. Allegedly, the women agreed to sex on the condition Mr. Assange wear a condom. He did not do so throughout intercourse. Although the English courts had previously ruled that one cannot give conditional consent, in order to be able to allow extradition to Sweden, the Supreme Court ruled that his actions would constitute a crime under English law - thus allowing conditional consent to become valid in English law." And to describe even just the aggravating circumstance described here as merely "not wearing a condom" omits that the reason for it being a problem: because Assange knew the woman would not have sex without a condom. So (if true) there are 2 reasons to think he was having sex without consent, which is rape.
      - sneak 5y ago
        > primary reason for the charge of rape. > The primary reason was Assange was not charged. Please stop spreading this falsehood.
    - sneak 5y ago
      > Recall the Assange trial where Yes, you did.
      - mc32 5y ago
        Apologies, fixed.
        sneak 5y ago
        You "fixed" it to a rape accusation; Assange was also not accused of rape by anyone in Sweden.
        mc32 5y ago
        You’re saying he wasn’t accused of rape? Cornell has it wrong ?
        sneak 5y ago
        If you believe the opposite, please name the name of the natural person so accusing him, and quote them specifically. No victims, nor officials, have accused him of any such thing. The arrest warrant that was issued was because he was wanted for questioning/investigation, and the direct statements of the women involved in the matter are very illuminating.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
birdyrooster 5y ago
I think manipulation for sex can be rape too in the right context
admash 5y ago
"Rape: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception." Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape The key point being "valid consent" and its contravention by deception. i.e. It's not valid if what you are consenting to is a lie, namely who you think you are having sex with.
- zepto 5y ago
  Interesting. The problem with that definition is that it doesn’t define what kinds of deception are sufficient to make sex qualify as rape. Does any lie automatically turn sex into rape, or are there limits, e.g. only if you lie about working for the state? Why for example would not disclosing that you are a cop be different from not disclosing that you are a doctor or an engineer?
  - beaugunderson 5y ago
    HIV status is one concrete example; in Michigan for example non-disclosure is a felony.
    - zepto 5y ago
      A felony, but not rape. One which wouldn’t need to be on the books if merely lying about yourself constituted rape. This entire idea that merely lying about who you before sex are constitutes rape is simply not true. Certain deceptions may be crimes, but that is completely different.
- zokula 5y ago
  If that's the case, women are more likely to be rapists then men. And I also raped hunreds of women.
pmoriarty 5y ago
Rape is sex without consent. If you have sex with someone because you think you're in love with them and they're in love with you, but in fact they're not who you thought they were but they're just putting on an act, don't love you, and are using you then it's most definitely rape because you haven't given consent to have sex with someone you don't actually know and who's deceiving you in the most despicable way.
- setr 5y ago
  Eh this gets really iffy really fast. What becomes of casual hookups or third-dates, where both sides are running almost entirely on false pretenses, incomplete truths, and a swath of assumptions? What turns it into villainy is the explicit intent to deceive for nefarious purposes, but calling it rape feels like a serious dilution of the word
- refurb 5y ago
  No, that’s not rape at all. That’s kind of ridiculous to make that claim and doesn’t even hold up to logical scrutiny.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>it's, rightly, considered rape to have sex with someone under false pretenses Like saying you're on birth control when you're not? Firstly, that's not the legal or common usage definition or rape anywhere that I know of. (I'm sure some jurisdiction somewhere includes it as a catchall though.) Secondly, I don't understand how someone can say "rightly" with a straight face. People lie or stretch the truth to comical levels about age, marital status, number of prior partners, employment/wealth, etc. in order to get laid all the time. A man or woman pretending to be someone they're not in order to reel in a partner they couldn't otherwise is a pretty universal trope across cultures. Unethical? Yes. But I don't think anyone considers that sexual assault let alone rape. I'm pretty sure it was Dave Chappelle who said "you faked your orgasm but I faked my entire personality".