5 ms·

You talk as if haggling over prices during a medical emergency was normal and are proud you got a good deal. That's what normalization of deviance looks like.

f6v 5y ago
Someone is ought to bring Europe up. Yeah, you’d get it for free in Belgium or Germany. The wait times though… could anything from couple weeks to half a year.
- johnday 5y ago
  For a medical emergency? This is simply false.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    I live in Canada, and I've seen people put on 6+ month waitlists for (a) MRI after a concussion to make sure there's no internal bleeding (which can kill in a single day), (b) MRI after a stroke to diagnose the root cause, (c) ACL replacement surgery. Universal healthcare is great, but when you're in a 2-party system and one party undermines it whenever they're in power, the result is terrible.
    - johnday 5y ago
      I'm sorry to hear that, but it's not quite relevant to the point that the parent was making about Europe. For what it's worth, I live in the UK which has similar woes to how you describe Canada's two-party system. However we do normally get seen quickly for things which are a threat to life---but elective operations can take much longer. Mental health issues are also dealt with sluggishly at best.
  - f6v 5y ago
    Describe emergency. Sure, you’ll get an MRI after a car crash. But you could be in this state where you’re not dying, but still very uncomfortable. The wait list is pretty long then.
    - KittenInABox 5y ago
      Do you have studies on waiting times that you can cite here? Genuinely asking because I know they certainly exist for Canada[1] with breakdowns down to the Province [2] so I'm just assuming you have some proof that can be used to bolster your claim. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7292524/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7292524/ 2. https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-Diagnostic-Imaging https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-D...
- sofixa 5y ago
  For an emergency MRI? Are you insane? For reference, i got an MRI in two days for knee pain after i fell with a bike and the pain didn't go away after a few weeks ( so obviously nothing urgent). And FYI, i paid for it, iirc 60-100 euros, repaid in full by my medical insurance.
  - f6v 5y ago
    The parent wasn’t saying whether it was an emergency or not.
    - jrochkind1 5y ago
      So, yeah, there is a point on who considers what an emergency. They were saying they had pain and nausea, the doctor suspected a kidney stone. Is this an "emergency"? I have had a kidney stone, it is intense pain. My mother had one, said it reminded her of childbirth. But it won't kill you, probably. You could just be in intense pain for weeks or longer waiting to pass it. Is that an emergency? I think in probably any sane medical system it is. In the USA? No idea.
- avh02 5y ago
  what i've found/heard in germany is this: you may struggle/it may take long to find certain things to get a diagnosis, but once you do, it's a ball that gets rolling insanely fast. 2 anecdotal examples: colleague's young child was fainting, took them quite a while to get through the right set of doctors/specialists to find out it was a brain tumor - after that was found though, they were scheduled for surgery the next morning. Operation successful, child okay. I had an appendectomy in the middle of covid: went to the ER unannounced at 7 p.m. - was on the table at 1 a.m. - i paid 50 euros (10 for each day i spent there (they kept me for 3-4 days "just in case")). This was quoted to me up front (the rate, but not the number of days) and i signed a document stating i understood that charge before i was in surgery.
  - f6v 5y ago
    That’s all correct. The point is it’s incredibly hard to get to the specialist at times. I was trying to get an appointment in Belgium, they could only offer April 2022.
    - petschge 5y ago
      Same is true in the US.
    - TillE 5y ago
      In Germany, in the vast majority of cases, you can simply go to any doctor's practice (including specialists, no referral required) during office hours and see the doctor the same day, if it's urgent. They'll squeeze you in. For non-urgent appointments, yes, the wait time for specialists can sometimes be months.
- himinlomax 5y ago
  I got an MRI in France a few years back, not an emergency. Booked an appointment for the next day. To be fair, 30 years ago when MRIs were kinda new and machines were extremely expensive, I remember there was not enough of them and patients and doctors complained of long wait times. That's not been an issue in a while.
- Tade0 5y ago
  I can get an whole body MRI in Poland for ~$250 via a private healthcare provider and wait less than a week for it at that. Why is an MRI anywhere in the world $1500, or $3500 for that matter?
  - vidarh 5y ago
    Similar price in London. One provider I checked indicated $560 for their "platinum service" which included lots of mostly pointless extras, but $280 for the basic service. Private hospitals in London largely live off a split of offering cheap convenience or extracting money from foreign patients, but there are so many of them fighting for a small pool of patients given most people just go to the NHS that they have to compete hard.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  There is one major healthcare provider in my region. When I arrived here, the wait time for a physical was more than two months. The shitty US system is not giving me at-will service.
- astura 5y ago
  That's very similar to wait times as in the US. Fuck, a few years ago I had to switch dentists and I couldn't get even a teeth cleaning without waiting more than six months.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  I would like the citation to specifically where and when someone had to wait half a year for a kidney stone to be diagnosed and treated in Europe.
- vidarh 5y ago
  In most of Europe you still have the option of going private if you want that, either with private insurance on a "top up" basis, or paying per appointment. I don't know what the prices are in Germany, but in London an abdominal MRI is in the $280-$600 range. (EDIT: And you can usually get a same or next day appointment)
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    Prices in Germany are set by the government. If you check the Gebührenordnung für Ärzte you'll see that in private practice an abdominal MRI is EUR 256.46. The US are a clear outlier.
    - vidarh 5y ago
      Makes sense, given the prices I've seen for London and the prices someone quoted for Poland. Makes the US pricing in this article even more bizarre - in "normal times" you could literally fly to Europe for an MRI and save money.
    - sneak 5y ago
      Correspondingly, senior SWEs at startups in Germany struggle to earn above €100k/y.
      - HarryHirsch 5y ago
        Even so, medical bankruptcies are not a thing in Germany.
      - messe 5y ago
        What exactly is your point? That it is worth it that people go bankrupt due to medical issues because it means that certain professions can earn 6 figures? I’m really curious. What do you think you are saying? How do you think those two statements correspond? Do you genuinely believe that if the majority of Europe were to ditch its public health services that salaries would go up and that that would be a good thing?
madpata 5y ago
He didn't haggle over the price of the procedure. He only asked how much it's going to be and was charged with over double what he was quoted.
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  In Britain you'd go to A&E with your kidney stone and just get the required treatment without haggling over prices.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    And if you do insist on going private for a kidney MRI, a quick google shows prices are in the 200-400 pound range ($280-$560, roughly) for MRI of the abdomen.
jt2190 5y ago
It wasn’t a medical emergency. He visited his Primary Care physician, who recommended an MRI, which was performed at a hospital. In the U.S. it’s possible (but not widely known) that you can shop around for medical imaging like MRIs. (My wife has saved thousands of dollars doing this.) Hospitals often run these as profit centers so the markup is quite steep.
- jdmichal 5y ago
  Yes. There are often entire offices that specialize in radiology and do only that.
jrochkind1 5y ago
Yup, good reminder that we're here in the US being like "We should be able to tell what absurd price we are going to be charged before we get the procedure so we can decide if we want to shop around and we can't even do that!", and still on "if only we could do that, it would be a victory!". Geesh, we're screwed.
oconnor663 5y ago
I think this is part of why the system is so hard to change. Because of these informal workarounds, most well-educated, reasonably-savvy people can navigate it and get to an acceptable outcome. But people with less familiarity/sophistication/resources get screwed badly. So the system only fails the people who have no power to change it.
__turbobrew__ 5y ago
These stories are amazing to read as a Canadian. I recently went to my doctor for chronic foot pain and I was into the MRI within a week (albeit at 3AM) and didn't pay a cent. I have received multiple offers to work in the US as a dev but the quality of life and safety nets here in Canada are more important to me than a higher salary.

f6v 5y ago

Someone is ought to bring Europe up. Yeah, you’d get it for free in Belgium or Germany. The wait times though… could anything from couple weeks to half a year.

johnday 5y ago
For a medical emergency? This is simply false.
- klyrs 5y ago
  I live in Canada, and I've seen people put on 6+ month waitlists for (a) MRI after a concussion to make sure there's no internal bleeding (which can kill in a single day), (b) MRI after a stroke to diagnose the root cause, (c) ACL replacement surgery. Universal healthcare is great, but when you're in a 2-party system and one party undermines it whenever they're in power, the result is terrible.
  - johnday 5y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that, but it's not quite relevant to the point that the parent was making about Europe. For what it's worth, I live in the UK which has similar woes to how you describe Canada's two-party system. However we do normally get seen quickly for things which are a threat to life---but elective operations can take much longer. Mental health issues are also dealt with sluggishly at best.
- f6v 5y ago
  Describe emergency. Sure, you’ll get an MRI after a car crash. But you could be in this state where you’re not dying, but still very uncomfortable. The wait list is pretty long then.
  - KittenInABox 5y ago
    Do you have studies on waiting times that you can cite here? Genuinely asking because I know they certainly exist for Canada[1] with breakdowns down to the Province [2] so I'm just assuming you have some proof that can be used to bolster your claim. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7292524/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7292524/ 2. https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-Diagnostic-Imaging https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/Wait-Times-for-D...
sofixa 5y ago
For an emergency MRI? Are you insane? For reference, i got an MRI in two days for knee pain after i fell with a bike and the pain didn't go away after a few weeks ( so obviously nothing urgent). And FYI, i paid for it, iirc 60-100 euros, repaid in full by my medical insurance.
- f6v 5y ago
  The parent wasn’t saying whether it was an emergency or not.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    So, yeah, there is a point on who considers what an emergency. They were saying they had pain and nausea, the doctor suspected a kidney stone. Is this an "emergency"? I have had a kidney stone, it is intense pain. My mother had one, said it reminded her of childbirth. But it won't kill you, probably. You could just be in intense pain for weeks or longer waiting to pass it. Is that an emergency? I think in probably any sane medical system it is. In the USA? No idea.
avh02 5y ago
what i've found/heard in germany is this: you may struggle/it may take long to find certain things to get a diagnosis, but once you do, it's a ball that gets rolling insanely fast. 2 anecdotal examples: colleague's young child was fainting, took them quite a while to get through the right set of doctors/specialists to find out it was a brain tumor - after that was found though, they were scheduled for surgery the next morning. Operation successful, child okay. I had an appendectomy in the middle of covid: went to the ER unannounced at 7 p.m. - was on the table at 1 a.m. - i paid 50 euros (10 for each day i spent there (they kept me for 3-4 days "just in case")). This was quoted to me up front (the rate, but not the number of days) and i signed a document stating i understood that charge before i was in surgery.
- f6v 5y ago
  That’s all correct. The point is it’s incredibly hard to get to the specialist at times. I was trying to get an appointment in Belgium, they could only offer April 2022.
  - petschge 5y ago
    Same is true in the US.
  - TillE 5y ago
    In Germany, in the vast majority of cases, you can simply go to any doctor's practice (including specialists, no referral required) during office hours and see the doctor the same day, if it's urgent. They'll squeeze you in. For non-urgent appointments, yes, the wait time for specialists can sometimes be months.
himinlomax 5y ago
I got an MRI in France a few years back, not an emergency. Booked an appointment for the next day. To be fair, 30 years ago when MRIs were kinda new and machines were extremely expensive, I remember there was not enough of them and patients and doctors complained of long wait times. That's not been an issue in a while.
Tade0 5y ago
I can get an whole body MRI in Poland for ~$250 via a private healthcare provider and wait less than a week for it at that. Why is an MRI anywhere in the world $1500, or $3500 for that matter?
- vidarh 5y ago
  Similar price in London. One provider I checked indicated $560 for their "platinum service" which included lots of mostly pointless extras, but $280 for the basic service. Private hospitals in London largely live off a split of offering cheap convenience or extracting money from foreign patients, but there are so many of them fighting for a small pool of patients given most people just go to the NHS that they have to compete hard.
UncleMeat 5y ago
There is one major healthcare provider in my region. When I arrived here, the wait time for a physical was more than two months. The shitty US system is not giving me at-will service.
astura 5y ago
That's very similar to wait times as in the US. Fuck, a few years ago I had to switch dentists and I couldn't get even a teeth cleaning without waiting more than six months.
jrochkind1 5y ago
I would like the citation to specifically where and when someone had to wait half a year for a kidney stone to be diagnosed and treated in Europe.
vidarh 5y ago
In most of Europe you still have the option of going private if you want that, either with private insurance on a "top up" basis, or paying per appointment. I don't know what the prices are in Germany, but in London an abdominal MRI is in the $280-$600 range. (EDIT: And you can usually get a same or next day appointment)
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  Prices in Germany are set by the government. If you check the Gebührenordnung für Ärzte you'll see that in private practice an abdominal MRI is EUR 256.46. The US are a clear outlier.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    Makes sense, given the prices I've seen for London and the prices someone quoted for Poland. Makes the US pricing in this article even more bizarre - in "normal times" you could literally fly to Europe for an MRI and save money.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Correspondingly, senior SWEs at startups in Germany struggle to earn above €100k/y.
    - HarryHirsch 5y ago
      Even so, medical bankruptcies are not a thing in Germany.
    - messe 5y ago
      What exactly is your point? That it is worth it that people go bankrupt due to medical issues because it means that certain professions can earn 6 figures? I’m really curious. What do you think you are saying? How do you think those two statements correspond? Do you genuinely believe that if the majority of Europe were to ditch its public health services that salaries would go up and that that would be a good thing?

madpata 5y ago

He didn't haggle over the price of the procedure. He only asked how much it's going to be and was charged with over double what he was quoted.

HarryHirsch 5y ago
In Britain you'd go to A&E with your kidney stone and just get the required treatment without haggling over prices.
- vidarh 5y ago
  And if you do insist on going private for a kidney MRI, a quick google shows prices are in the 200-400 pound range ($280-$560, roughly) for MRI of the abdomen.

jt2190 5y ago

It wasn’t a medical emergency. He visited his Primary Care physician, who recommended an MRI, which was performed at a hospital. In the U.S. it’s possible (but not widely known) that you can shop around for medical imaging like MRIs. (My wife has saved thousands of dollars doing this.) Hospitals often run these as profit centers so the markup is quite steep.

jdmichal 5y ago
Yes. There are often entire offices that specialize in radiology and do only that.

jrochkind1 5y ago

Yup, good reminder that we're here in the US being like "We should be able to tell what absurd price we are going to be charged before we get the procedure so we can decide if we want to shop around and we can't even do that!", and still on "if only we could do that, it would be a victory!". Geesh, we're screwed.

oconnor663 5y ago

I think this is part of why the system is so hard to change. Because of these informal workarounds, most well-educated, reasonably-savvy people can navigate it and get to an acceptable outcome. But people with less familiarity/sophistication/resources get screwed badly. So the system only fails the people who have no power to change it.

__turbobrew__ 5y ago

These stories are amazing to read as a Canadian. I recently went to my doctor for chronic foot pain and I was into the MRI within a week (albeit at 3AM) and didn't pay a cent. I have received multiple offers to work in the US as a dev but the quality of life and safety nets here in Canada are more important to me than a higher salary.