4 ms·

WiFi beacons are extremely important for good geolocation in buildings and in cities. Are you saying we should get rid of this functionality just to ensure nobo

WiFi beacons are extremely important for good geolocation in buildings and in cities. Are you saying we should get rid of this functionality just to ensure nobody has a database of the physical location of hardware addresses? Phones already have random hardware addresses, so it's not like your movements are being tracked because of your mobile hotspot.

quotemstr 5y ago
> Are you saying we should get rid of this functionality just to ensure nobody has a database of the physical location of hardware addresses? "Privacy" advocates constantly demand that all of us bear the costs of worse technology just so they can have a little fake relief from their imaginary harms. We're long past the point of diminishing returns in preserving real privacy: now privacy advocacy is all about holiness spiraling. That said, I don't blame Amazon here: why wouldn't they take advantage of an opportunity to hurt a competitor at no cost to themselves?
alias_neo 5y ago
I didn't make any comment for nor against, I simply stated a fact. As for my opinion, I have no issue with the collection of the physical location of access points, I take issue with making me litter my chosen SSID with garbage so that I can opt out. Regarding hotspot, I'm not sure what you mean, none of this discussion is about mobile hotspot.
- mortehu 5y ago
  I wasn't responding to you, but what other way would you choose to opt out? SSID is one of the few things you can adjust on almost any access point. Hotspots are relevant because they are often personal and they follow you around, so if they didn't randomize their hardware address, then anyone could track your movements.
  - jeromegv 5y ago
    This is Google's problem to figure out (how we should opt-out, or if it should be a opt-in service), the fact that you are putting the responsibility on the user is crazy in itself. We are talking of a billion dollar company tracking the location of your own router against your will and without permission.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      Well, my laptop is currently monitoring the wifi frames my neighbors' devices are transmitting, and I never asked their permission. Their devices are doing the same to mine and they never asked my permission. Your phone is monitoring all wifi frames being transmitted around you, regardless of what network those other wifi stations are connected to. That is part of the wifi standard -- stations try to avoid interfering with each other, and necessissarily monitor each other's transmission without anyone asking for any permission. Do you want to live in a world where wifi requires permission? Trying tracking down all the people in your area who are using wifi -- I have literally hundreds of wifi stations around me, operated by dozens of different people, and I have no idea who they are or how to contact them. The next time you turn on your laptop, before connecting to a wifi network (by which point you have already recorded transmissions from other wifi networks in the area), try making sure you have everyone's permission -- after all, you would not want to benefit (by being able to use wifi and not having to carry an ethernet cable around) from your device monitoring another person's network if they did not say it was OK! Most wifi is operated in the unlicensed band, which is meant to be permissionless. That makes it convenient and suitable for consumer applications, and it also means that you have NO right to complain that Google and Microsoft dared to record your wifi beacons without asking your permission.
    - mortehu 5y ago
      Why are you singling out Google, though? Mozilla uses the same opt out mechanism, as do the various open databases such as OpenWLANMap. If you are worried about this, do you realize Google Photos also stores the location of photos of objects, and owners of those objects cannot opt out of this "tracking"?
WhyNotHugo 5y ago
What pisses me is that a company keeps a list of where OUR beacons are, and uses that for their own products, while not giving back anything in return. If Google wants to build a database of access points that we all pay for (both the device and its energy consumption), I, at a minimum, want access to a copy of such a database so I can use it too.

quotemstr 5y ago

> Are you saying we should get rid of this functionality just to ensure nobody has a database of the physical location of hardware addresses? "Privacy" advocates constantly demand that all of us bear the costs of worse technology just so they can have a little fake relief from their imaginary harms. We're long past the point of diminishing returns in preserving real privacy: now privacy advocacy is all about holiness spiraling. That said, I don't blame Amazon here: why wouldn't they take advantage of an opportunity to hurt a competitor at no cost to themselves?

alias_neo 5y ago

I didn't make any comment for nor against, I simply stated a fact. As for my opinion, I have no issue with the collection of the physical location of access points, I take issue with making me litter my chosen SSID with garbage so that I can opt out. Regarding hotspot, I'm not sure what you mean, none of this discussion is about mobile hotspot.

mortehu 5y ago
I wasn't responding to you, but what other way would you choose to opt out? SSID is one of the few things you can adjust on almost any access point. Hotspots are relevant because they are often personal and they follow you around, so if they didn't randomize their hardware address, then anyone could track your movements.
- jeromegv 5y ago
  This is Google's problem to figure out (how we should opt-out, or if it should be a opt-in service), the fact that you are putting the responsibility on the user is crazy in itself. We are talking of a billion dollar company tracking the location of your own router against your will and without permission.
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    Well, my laptop is currently monitoring the wifi frames my neighbors' devices are transmitting, and I never asked their permission. Their devices are doing the same to mine and they never asked my permission. Your phone is monitoring all wifi frames being transmitted around you, regardless of what network those other wifi stations are connected to. That is part of the wifi standard -- stations try to avoid interfering with each other, and necessissarily monitor each other's transmission without anyone asking for any permission. Do you want to live in a world where wifi requires permission? Trying tracking down all the people in your area who are using wifi -- I have literally hundreds of wifi stations around me, operated by dozens of different people, and I have no idea who they are or how to contact them. The next time you turn on your laptop, before connecting to a wifi network (by which point you have already recorded transmissions from other wifi networks in the area), try making sure you have everyone's permission -- after all, you would not want to benefit (by being able to use wifi and not having to carry an ethernet cable around) from your device monitoring another person's network if they did not say it was OK! Most wifi is operated in the unlicensed band, which is meant to be permissionless. That makes it convenient and suitable for consumer applications, and it also means that you have NO right to complain that Google and Microsoft dared to record your wifi beacons without asking your permission.
  - mortehu 5y ago
    Why are you singling out Google, though? Mozilla uses the same opt out mechanism, as do the various open databases such as OpenWLANMap. If you are worried about this, do you realize Google Photos also stores the location of photos of objects, and owners of those objects cannot opt out of this "tracking"?

WhyNotHugo 5y ago

What pisses me is that a company keeps a list of where OUR beacons are, and uses that for their own products, while not giving back anything in return. If Google wants to build a database of access points that we all pay for (both the device and its energy consumption), I, at a minimum, want access to a copy of such a database so I can use it too.