4 ms·

Why would it be illegal to listen to or record broadcasts in the unlicensed ISM band? In fact monitoring the band is part of the wifi standard itself, as wifi

Why would it be illegal to listen to or record broadcasts in the unlicensed ISM band? In fact monitoring the band is part of the wifi standard itself, as wifi devices are supposed to avoid interfering with each other even if they are not associated to the same AP. Most devices monitor the entire 2.4ghz and 5ghz bands for beacons from APs to give the user a listen of available networks and to support roaming.

afandian 5y ago
The Computer Misuse Act [0] makes it an offence to commit "unauthorised access to computer material". Obviously Google thinks they can get away with it, but it's an entirely reasonable question. I'm not saying what they are doing is illegal, but their approach to tax hardly demonstrates good-faith approach to the law. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Misuse_Act_1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Misuse_Act_1990
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- betterunix2 5y ago
  IANAL but the fact that you are using wifi means that you are authorizing others to monitor everything you transmit -- that is literally in the wifi standard. It is also worth pointing out that no computers are being "accessed" here, we are talking about recording the wifi beacons that APs broadcast (also part of the standard), so the only relevant laws should be those governing radio equipment. Even if we wanted a world of tightly controlled access to radio receivers (again, we are talking about recording and not about transmitting), the ISM bands that wifi uses were specifically set aside for unlicensed use by the general public. The fact is that your ability to simply plug in a wifi router and use it with any devices you want, without having to coordinate with anyone or buy a SIM card or whatever else, comes with the understanding that anyone else can monitor your wifi network for any purpose (and in fact this is a requirement of the wifi standard). If monitoring someone's wifi transmissions required their explicitly approval, nobody would be able to use wifi -- every time you moved your phone from one place to another, you would first need permission from every wifi station operator to monitor their transmissions before your phone could use wifi (you would not even be able to join a network you had previously used, because doing so requires your phone to listen to beacons being transmitted by nearby APs).
  - afandian 5y ago
    I'm not going to guess the foibles of law, especially the British courts. But the intention of accessing your network for the purposes of choosing a network you're authorized to use is different from connecting to networks you know you do not have authorization to use, and then for a purpose that a reasonable person wouldn't expect would be assumed. I.e. I think it's reasonable to expect that I grant permission to my neighbours and passers-by to access my network for the purpose of choosing their own network. I don't expect that they will be adding my address to a data-set. And maybe individuals do speculatively connect to random networks, but that's different to doing it at an industrial scale.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      Except that nobody is connecting to a network without permission. Again, we are talking about monitoring radio transmissions (wifi beacons) in an unlicensed band. You do not need to connect to a wifi network to receive beacons from the AP, those are transmitted periodically as part of the normal operation of the AP. You seem to be hung up on what is being done with the recorded beacons, but we are talking about the unlicensed band, so you have no reasonable expectations about what is being done by anyone. That is the point of the unlicensed band. It is meant to be a free-for-all, which is the only thing that is suitable for consumer applications (imagine if every phone, laptop, router, drone, microwave oven, baby monitor, etc. you purchased required you to get permission from everyone around you before it could be used).
      - afandian 5y ago
        Not hung up, just interested in exploring it. Thanks for the info, I'd assumed that the SSID broadcast was done on the same band as the actual network communications.
        betterunix2 5y ago
        It is broadcast on the same band as the communications, which is almost always in an unlicensed band (if your wifi network used a licensed band you would know -- you would have had to fill out a bunch of paperwork and pay a fee for your license). The point here is that anyone can monitor your wifi transmissions, not just the AP beacons, for any purpose.

afandian 5y ago

The Computer Misuse Act [0] makes it an offence to commit "unauthorised access to computer material". Obviously Google thinks they can get away with it, but it's an entirely reasonable question. I'm not saying what they are doing is illegal, but their approach to tax hardly demonstrates good-faith approach to the law. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Misuse_Act_1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Misuse_Act_1990

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
betterunix2 5y ago
IANAL but the fact that you are using wifi means that you are authorizing others to monitor everything you transmit -- that is literally in the wifi standard. It is also worth pointing out that no computers are being "accessed" here, we are talking about recording the wifi beacons that APs broadcast (also part of the standard), so the only relevant laws should be those governing radio equipment. Even if we wanted a world of tightly controlled access to radio receivers (again, we are talking about recording and not about transmitting), the ISM bands that wifi uses were specifically set aside for unlicensed use by the general public. The fact is that your ability to simply plug in a wifi router and use it with any devices you want, without having to coordinate with anyone or buy a SIM card or whatever else, comes with the understanding that anyone else can monitor your wifi network for any purpose (and in fact this is a requirement of the wifi standard). If monitoring someone's wifi transmissions required their explicitly approval, nobody would be able to use wifi -- every time you moved your phone from one place to another, you would first need permission from every wifi station operator to monitor their transmissions before your phone could use wifi (you would not even be able to join a network you had previously used, because doing so requires your phone to listen to beacons being transmitted by nearby APs).
- afandian 5y ago
  I'm not going to guess the foibles of law, especially the British courts. But the intention of accessing your network for the purposes of choosing a network you're authorized to use is different from connecting to networks you know you do not have authorization to use, and then for a purpose that a reasonable person wouldn't expect would be assumed. I.e. I think it's reasonable to expect that I grant permission to my neighbours and passers-by to access my network for the purpose of choosing their own network. I don't expect that they will be adding my address to a data-set. And maybe individuals do speculatively connect to random networks, but that's different to doing it at an industrial scale.
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    Except that nobody is connecting to a network without permission. Again, we are talking about monitoring radio transmissions (wifi beacons) in an unlicensed band. You do not need to connect to a wifi network to receive beacons from the AP, those are transmitted periodically as part of the normal operation of the AP. You seem to be hung up on what is being done with the recorded beacons, but we are talking about the unlicensed band, so you have no reasonable expectations about what is being done by anyone. That is the point of the unlicensed band. It is meant to be a free-for-all, which is the only thing that is suitable for consumer applications (imagine if every phone, laptop, router, drone, microwave oven, baby monitor, etc. you purchased required you to get permission from everyone around you before it could be used).
    - afandian 5y ago
      Not hung up, just interested in exploring it. Thanks for the info, I'd assumed that the SSID broadcast was done on the same band as the actual network communications.
      - betterunix2 5y ago
        It is broadcast on the same band as the communications, which is almost always in an unlicensed band (if your wifi network used a licensed band you would know -- you would have had to fill out a bunch of paperwork and pay a fee for your license). The point here is that anyone can monitor your wifi transmissions, not just the AP beacons, for any purpose.