5 ms·

Instead of thinking "We can't think of a less intrusive way, so deal with it", how about "We can't think of a less intrusive way, so let's not do it until we do

by hn8788 5y ago

Instead of thinking "We can't think of a less intrusive way, so deal with it", how about "We can't think of a less intrusive way, so let's not do it until we do".

calvinmorrison 5y ago
I frequently get something like "why would you want to do that" running my unconventional browser settings. It's like people can't even comprehend people don't want to get tracked by FAANG
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  I'm not sure how "associating a publicly broadcast BSSID with coordinates" is tracking a person.
  - drofmij 5y ago
    This is probably related to them getting in trouble for scanning networks while mapping. If I remember correctly they were doing a bit of port scanning and looking for share drives in an attempt to id which SSID was attached to which address. This is probably part of the wrist slap they got from FCC. "Oh well you can totally opt out now so it's ok"
  - bingidingi 5y ago
    If I have a unique SSID (let's say, my social security number because why not at this point) and I move to a different apartment and keep the same SSID... then Google's effectively tracking a person. If you have basic address/name info you can even pinpoint who owns the SSID.
  - callmeal 5y ago
    >I'm not sure how "associating a publicly broadcast BSSID with coordinates" is tracking a person. But it's not just that is it? If you log in to a google site from that publicly broadcast BSSID, you will get tracked by association, even if you have your location tracking turned off.
    - kllrnohj 5y ago
      No you won't. What BSSID you're connected to isn't sent by any browser. Browsers (as in all of them, including Firefox, see https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/ ) will use the visible BSSIDs if the website asks for your location & you approve it, but it's not just silently done automatically. It's part of all the existing location permission & request flows (indeed it's how those work on laptops at all in the first place).
      - bigiain 5y ago
        Am I being tinfoil hat grade cynical if my first thought there was "Sure, browsers might not send BSSIDs, but who knows what Android is doing underneath?" I wouldn't bet against Google being capable of exfiltrating BSSIDs via their broad swathe of 'Google Services' most Android devices are running (and probably most iOS devices too).
        kllrnohj 5y ago
        Android is reporting your GPS location along with visible BSSIDs, that's how this database is built and updated (so does Apple on iOS). Both have location privacy controls that govern that, and there's no particular reason to believe they ignore them.
        bigiain 5y ago
        Like I said, I may be overly cynical, but I do have a particular reason to believe the largest surveillance capitalism and advertising company in the world might be ignoring my privacy preferences... (And Apple might be too, but they've got different motivations and incentives around iOS user privacy that Google for Android users...)
  - onion2k 5y ago
    When you frame it like that it isn't, but that's because you're ignoring the second part of the equation which is "then Google can tell where an Android device is when it sees that BSSID even if its location services are turned off." Turning WiFi SSIDs in to location data doesn't track people directly, but it does enable the mass surveillance of people's devices, and that's something that's quite reasonable to opt out of.
    - jfrunyon 5y ago
      > even if its location services are turned off cite?
      - hulitu 5y ago
        I do not have the source code for my phone and this switch is a SW switch. There is no guarantee that it does what it claims. It's like the mute label in conferencing SW: you cough and the SW tells you that "you are *sic" muted"
kllrnohj 5y ago
Wifi SSID triangulation is incredibly common & is one of the primary ways phones are able to so reliably & quickly get a fine location, especially indoors. Apple is also collecting & phoning home all SSIDs with a GPS location that they come across, for example. So is Mozilla for that matter, and Mozilla also uses the same _nomap suffix as Google does ( https://location.services.mozilla.com/optout https://location.services.mozilla.com/optout ). It's how browsers on laptops are able to get a location, which is also true on again both Apple & Microsoft devices as well. So no, Google can't just opt to not do this at all. Not if they want to be competitive. The entire ecosystem could collectively decide to not build an SSID location database at all, but since SSIDs are not identifying this is going to be a struggle to justify.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  No one does triangulation. They do trilateration, which is the version of finding things that uses circles (signal strength is proportional to distance).
Nasrudith 5y ago
That means never doing anything by induction.

by hn8788 5y ago

Instead of thinking "We can't think of a less intrusive way, so deal with it", how about "We can't think of a less intrusive way, so let's not do it until we do".

calvinmorrison 5y ago

I frequently get something like "why would you want to do that" running my unconventional browser settings. It's like people can't even comprehend people don't want to get tracked by FAANG

jfrunyon 5y ago
I'm not sure how "associating a publicly broadcast BSSID with coordinates" is tracking a person.
- drofmij 5y ago
  This is probably related to them getting in trouble for scanning networks while mapping. If I remember correctly they were doing a bit of port scanning and looking for share drives in an attempt to id which SSID was attached to which address. This is probably part of the wrist slap they got from FCC. "Oh well you can totally opt out now so it's ok"
- bingidingi 5y ago
  If I have a unique SSID (let's say, my social security number because why not at this point) and I move to a different apartment and keep the same SSID... then Google's effectively tracking a person. If you have basic address/name info you can even pinpoint who owns the SSID.
- callmeal 5y ago
  >I'm not sure how "associating a publicly broadcast BSSID with coordinates" is tracking a person. But it's not just that is it? If you log in to a google site from that publicly broadcast BSSID, you will get tracked by association, even if you have your location tracking turned off.
  - kllrnohj 5y ago
    No you won't. What BSSID you're connected to isn't sent by any browser. Browsers (as in all of them, including Firefox, see https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/ ) will use the visible BSSIDs if the website asks for your location & you approve it, but it's not just silently done automatically. It's part of all the existing location permission & request flows (indeed it's how those work on laptops at all in the first place).
    - bigiain 5y ago
      Am I being tinfoil hat grade cynical if my first thought there was "Sure, browsers might not send BSSIDs, but who knows what Android is doing underneath?" I wouldn't bet against Google being capable of exfiltrating BSSIDs via their broad swathe of 'Google Services' most Android devices are running (and probably most iOS devices too).
      - kllrnohj 5y ago
        Android is reporting your GPS location along with visible BSSIDs, that's how this database is built and updated (so does Apple on iOS). Both have location privacy controls that govern that, and there's no particular reason to believe they ignore them.
        bigiain 5y ago
        Like I said, I may be overly cynical, but I do have a particular reason to believe the largest surveillance capitalism and advertising company in the world might be ignoring my privacy preferences... (And Apple might be too, but they've got different motivations and incentives around iOS user privacy that Google for Android users...)
- onion2k 5y ago
  When you frame it like that it isn't, but that's because you're ignoring the second part of the equation which is "then Google can tell where an Android device is when it sees that BSSID even if its location services are turned off." Turning WiFi SSIDs in to location data doesn't track people directly, but it does enable the mass surveillance of people's devices, and that's something that's quite reasonable to opt out of.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    > even if its location services are turned off cite?
    - hulitu 5y ago
      I do not have the source code for my phone and this switch is a SW switch. There is no guarantee that it does what it claims. It's like the mute label in conferencing SW: you cough and the SW tells you that "you are *sic" muted"

kllrnohj 5y ago

Wifi SSID triangulation is incredibly common & is one of the primary ways phones are able to so reliably & quickly get a fine location, especially indoors. Apple is also collecting & phoning home all SSIDs with a GPS location that they come across, for example. So is Mozilla for that matter, and Mozilla also uses the same _nomap suffix as Google does ( https://location.services.mozilla.com/optout https://location.services.mozilla.com/optout ). It's how browsers on laptops are able to get a location, which is also true on again both Apple & Microsoft devices as well. So no, Google can't just opt to not do this at all. Not if they want to be competitive. The entire ecosystem could collectively decide to not build an SSID location database at all, but since SSIDs are not identifying this is going to be a struggle to justify.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
No one does triangulation. They do trilateration, which is the version of finding things that uses circles (signal strength is proportional to distance).

Nasrudith 5y ago

That means never doing anything by induction.