6 ms·

> For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money I don't think there is lack of imagination

> For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money I don't think there is lack of imagination. The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. In some countries you have to pay every month some amount of money if you want to be a freelancer, in others you need to setup a sole proprietorship, in others the distinction is not that clear. In almost every country in Europe (perhaps with the exception of the UK) the whole process is cumbersome. Young people who are willing to launch some projects online don't want to mess up with taxes authorities nor lawyers nor the commerce chamber... and hence they decide not to launch anything at all. Besides, setting up a company costs money (perhaps not much). I live in Europe. I don't want to setup a damn company for every little project I may think it can become big. I want to let my projects grow in the wild, and if any of them get traction then sure, I will setup a company without fear of losing money. Also: being a software engineer/computer programmer in Europe is not as sexy as it is in USA. It's getting better, yes, but here the "engineer" is the last monkey. Managers and sales are the ones who get the credit. So, European mentality also plays a role here.

Scarblac 5y ago
> > > For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money > I don't think there is lack of imagination. The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. I don't think that is true for the type of company that is described by the line you're replying to. Starting a company is not that hard. Starting a company without even knowing what its eventual business model will be, purely banking on growth for growth's sake, that requires a vast amount of investment with very little guarantees of a return. And that is hard to get in Europe! Much harder than merely starting a company is. I have been part of one such startup for a short time years ago, and I thought it was a complete scam, so unused was I to that type of company. I've never seen any since. > In some countries you have to pay every month some amount of money if you want to be a freelancer, Yes, but freelancing isn't the topic. However, I have a feeling that companies that just want to grow big and are unclear on what their business model will be when they are, are not exactly working on the most important problems. So maybe it's not all bad for Europe.
varjag 5y ago
> The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. Seriously? Your plumber managed to establish a company. That kebab place across the street. The delivery guy subcontracting for courier service. And the company that wants to conquer the world can't?
- Foobar8568 5y ago
  Yeah I remember some big4 companies saying that France is among the easiest country to incorporate a company ( I think it was E&Y). The problem is more on : 1 - Europe can't have a common language 2 - Each country will support first their own companies, then US, then other competitive European companies 3 - A mess to expend outside of its own country. 4 - Culture of useless consultancy companies (Atos, Alten, Altran, Cap Gemini, Accenture, and a shit load of others) for France and several other countries killing any IT innovations. And many more things.
  - varjag 5y ago
    Much of it is true. However as for #2, there are often at least clusters of countries where expansion isn't a big deal (BeNeLux, Nordics, Baltic…) so it's not that terrible. And supporting the US companies, well maybe it's true for the whales but nobody gives two damns about competing American startups.
- kansface 5y ago
  I live in the US, but the plumber is just doing business in one jurisdiction and expects that business will continue to exist for years. Jumping through a bunch of hoops may not be worth what starts out at a couple hundred dollars a month. Lots of companies only accidentally conquer the world. If you put a barrier in front of any activity, you will get less of it in direct proportion to the height of the barrier.
PeterisP 5y ago
IDK, I set up an LLC to bill for a single project, and it cost me something like 100 euros and a few hours of my time reading up on how to do it. Yes, that brings the need to file taxes every year - but on the other hand ordinary people in USA have to that for their personal income (unlike most people in EU), and that doesn't seem like something impossible to them. Like, it definitely is a barrier for trivial hobby projects, if you whip something up in a single day and don't want to spend any more time on it, then this becomes a problem, but it's not a meaningful barrier for any actual project on which you're working every week that brings you some revenue.
game_the0ry 5y ago
> Also: being a software engineer/computer programmer in Europe is not as sexy as it is in USA. It's getting better, yes, but here the "engineer" is the last monkey. Managers and sales are the ones who get the credit. So, European mentality also plays a role here. Eventually those manager and sales people will learn that they need developers to build stuff, or else they can't manage anyone because nothing has been built or sell products that don't exist.
- abz10 5y ago
  Unfortunately they are very slow learners and by the time they figure it out a lot of damage has been done.
- gryn 5y ago
  they found a better alternative called: 'you do the work, I get the pay in your place. win win'. and it's structured in the form of useless middlemen `consulting` companies going by the names of (Atos, Alten, Accenture, ...) finding a job in tech related industries means most probably going through them, and in practice they value business school people and management types way more than the lowly engineer.
- mnouquet 5y ago
  > Eventually those manager and sales people will learn that they need developers to build stuff The "bourgeoisie" never really figured out they needed workers to run the mines...
- jbverschoor 5y ago
  Why would you assume they’d change? They will simply go to non tech companies and “manage “people there
- b20000 5y ago
  I'm afraid that this is the same in the US.

Scarblac 5y ago

> > > For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money > I don't think there is lack of imagination. The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. I don't think that is true for the type of company that is described by the line you're replying to. Starting a company is not that hard. Starting a company without even knowing what its eventual business model will be, purely banking on growth for growth's sake, that requires a vast amount of investment with very little guarantees of a return. And that is hard to get in Europe! Much harder than merely starting a company is. I have been part of one such startup for a short time years ago, and I thought it was a complete scam, so unused was I to that type of company. I've never seen any since. > In some countries you have to pay every month some amount of money if you want to be a freelancer, Yes, but freelancing isn't the topic. However, I have a feeling that companies that just want to grow big and are unclear on what their business model will be when they are, are not exactly working on the most important problems. So maybe it's not all bad for Europe.

varjag 5y ago

> The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. Seriously? Your plumber managed to establish a company. That kebab place across the street. The delivery guy subcontracting for courier service. And the company that wants to conquer the world can't?

Foobar8568 5y ago
Yeah I remember some big4 companies saying that France is among the easiest country to incorporate a company ( I think it was E&Y). The problem is more on : 1 - Europe can't have a common language 2 - Each country will support first their own companies, then US, then other competitive European companies 3 - A mess to expend outside of its own country. 4 - Culture of useless consultancy companies (Atos, Alten, Altran, Cap Gemini, Accenture, and a shit load of others) for France and several other countries killing any IT innovations. And many more things.
- varjag 5y ago
  Much of it is true. However as for #2, there are often at least clusters of countries where expansion isn't a big deal (BeNeLux, Nordics, Baltic…) so it's not that terrible. And supporting the US companies, well maybe it's true for the whales but nobody gives two damns about competing American startups.
kansface 5y ago
I live in the US, but the plumber is just doing business in one jurisdiction and expects that business will continue to exist for years. Jumping through a bunch of hoops may not be worth what starts out at a couple hundred dollars a month. Lots of companies only accidentally conquer the world. If you put a barrier in front of any activity, you will get less of it in direct proportion to the height of the barrier.

PeterisP 5y ago

IDK, I set up an LLC to bill for a single project, and it cost me something like 100 euros and a few hours of my time reading up on how to do it. Yes, that brings the need to file taxes every year - but on the other hand ordinary people in USA have to that for their personal income (unlike most people in EU), and that doesn't seem like something impossible to them. Like, it definitely is a barrier for trivial hobby projects, if you whip something up in a single day and don't want to spend any more time on it, then this becomes a problem, but it's not a meaningful barrier for any actual project on which you're working every week that brings you some revenue.

game_the0ry 5y ago

> Also: being a software engineer/computer programmer in Europe is not as sexy as it is in USA. It's getting better, yes, but here the "engineer" is the last monkey. Managers and sales are the ones who get the credit. So, European mentality also plays a role here. Eventually those manager and sales people will learn that they need developers to build stuff, or else they can't manage anyone because nothing has been built or sell products that don't exist.

abz10 5y ago
Unfortunately they are very slow learners and by the time they figure it out a lot of damage has been done.
gryn 5y ago
they found a better alternative called: 'you do the work, I get the pay in your place. win win'. and it's structured in the form of useless middlemen `consulting` companies going by the names of (Atos, Alten, Accenture, ...) finding a job in tech related industries means most probably going through them, and in practice they value business school people and management types way more than the lowly engineer.
mnouquet 5y ago
> Eventually those manager and sales people will learn that they need developers to build stuff The "bourgeoisie" never really figured out they needed workers to run the mines...
jbverschoor 5y ago
Why would you assume they’d change? They will simply go to non tech companies and “manage “people there
b20000 5y ago
I'm afraid that this is the same in the US.