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Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

EliRivers 5y ago
Prosperity Theology, also known as Prosperity Gospel. Some of them say that the "eye of the needle" is actually a narrow gateway in Jerusalem - a physical gateway - which is a bit tight, but you can get a camel through it, so that's what Jesus was actually talking about, so actually it is fine to be rich; you might just have to unpack your camel a bit and carry your riches through. "The prosperity gospel (also known as the “health and wealth gospel” or by its most popular brand, the “Word of Faith” movement) is a perversion of the gospel of Jesus that claims that God rewards increases in faith with increases in health and/or wealth." - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-k... And so on.
52-6F-62 5y ago
You're asking for measurements to something not measurable. I can't relate to you my experiences or the experiences of others I've known or just observed (I'm a keen observer) without just giving you anecdotes. I could counter and ask you to measurably prove that people are not looked down upon for coming from a lower station, but I think we'd have some trouble with that as well. (Christians* are some of the worst for it—coming from one who grew up "in the church") * Thought I should asterisk that so we don't go down a discussion about what makes a "true" christian. It's a broad scope and label of convenience. It's not meant to slander anyone practicing their religion. It's most certainly not isolated to Christians. Most of the encounters I've had are with people who tend to believe themselves somehow more... esoterically enlightened. It doesn't even make them bad people—just filled with hubris.
apercu 5y ago
Did you and I grow up in the same country? The entire puritan work effort is based on this premise in some way or another. The more religious you are the more you appear to believe your wealth is a god-given right and that everyone else is a lazy no-gooder trying to steal the fruits of your hard work.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Puritanism typically holds that work is required, both historically and with the remnants we might see in more conservative protestants. Love of wealth - and particularly displays of wealth - would be failures of modesty and humility which are core values. Simply having wealth, especially wealth not shown but used for charity, would be considered a result of hard work. The puritans didn't wear drab clothes because they lacked decent dyes, they wore them as an element of modesty. Alms to the poor was not considered a bad thing, it was religiously required, especially when used to evangelize. [1] - https://www.apuritansmind.com/stewardship/rykenlelandpuritansandmoney/ https://www.apuritansmind.com/stewardship/rykenlelandpuritan...
boomboomsubban 5y ago
The concept of a "wealth of the soul" is not related to the metaphysical concept of a "soul." It refers to the idea that you're born deserving the position you are given.
drakythe 5y ago
>In my experience people here are Christian You need new experiences. Only ~70% of the US claims christianity (https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/) -- and that is "claims" because we all know there are people who do not practice what they preach. If you have more than 10 friends and don't know a single non-christian, your anecdotal experience most certainly does not reflect the data. Additionally, growing up in the bible belt, in my experience, the person you responded to is correct. "God will bless you" is a common refrain when talking about working hard, tithing, saving ones self for marriage, etc. And what is God's blessing in the arena of economics (hard work) except monetary reward? The prosperity gospel of mega churches is so popular for a reason, as disgusting as those of us on the outside may find it.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  anecdotal experience needn't ever reflect data, since humans can cluster into similar groups.
Frondo 5y ago
It's a somewhat clumsy restatement of the just world hypothesis, which seems like it's built into much of the discourse and attitudes of American society and has almost always been dominant.
dahart 5y ago
> I’ve never met anyone who things wealth reflects “wealth of the soul.” I’ve never met anyone who would say exactly those words out loud either, and I don’t speak for the parent, but I feel like you might be taking what was an analogy extremely literally. Have you ever met or seen someone sneer at a “hippie”? Have you ever heard someone argue that we should not increase the minimum wage? Have you ever heard someone suggest that homeless people are lazy or could get work if they wanted to? Have you ever witnessed anyone saying that the success they have is due primarily to their own hard work, and not for luck or advantages? I’ve seen all of those, often, and they all fit my interpretation of the parent’s comment. Social Darwinism certainly is a thing and has been for a long time. A quick google about it brought up this article worrying that it’s a growing fad again: http://faculty.etsu.edu/odonnell/2011fall/engl3130/student_writing/social_darwinism.htm http://faculty.etsu.edu/odonnell/2011fall/engl3130/student_w... Even just Survivor Bias in business - assertions that being better than the competition got them where they are - is relatively close to believing that having money proves you’re a better person. Certainly there’s no lack in the US of fascination with rich people nor of listening to our richest citizens. (How many famous rich people can you name? How many famous poor people?)
bwh2 5y ago
There's a good book called Moral Politics which covers this topic in depth.
pnutjam 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved and others were predestined to eternal damnation
anotherman554 5y ago
Regardless of what the bible says, American Christians do not believe "...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." You might ask yourself what America would look like if american Christians believed this line. A billionaire like Donald Trump would be unelectable. The inheritance tax would be 90%. The social safety net would be larger than secular Europe. Health care would be free as a universal right.
speakersPushAir 5y ago
The myth of rugged individualism is embedded in Western society. Be thankful you live in a position of such privilege to be unaware. I highly recommend you find paths for empathy in your own life. If you're young, the hubris is unavoidable and disregard this comment. There are many places you can start your research, but maybe looking into how we leverage shame and stigma is a good start: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/mental-health/priority-areas/stigma-and-discrimination https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di...
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Have you started your research? Because you seem to pin ignorance on OP due to various failings (youth, privilege, lack of empathy) while assuming your own position is ultimately correct. I would assume you (and anyone else) are better placed to describe your own virtues (to support your correctness), than some strangers vices (to support their incorrectness).
commandlinefan 5y ago
> I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." I've never met one either, but I've definitely met plenty of people who think the opposite: if you had any advantages of any kind over anybody else, your accomplishments don't "count". The only people who can actually be proud of what they've achieved and deserve what they have are people who were thrown away in a dumpster at birth, grew up in a run-down, inner-city, rat-infested orphanage being beaten every day but still managed to graduate with a perfect GPA even though they had to walk five miles each way to school in the snow with no shoes.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Maybe those born into positions of wealth believe the former, and those not believe in the latter - Hence each believing whatever benefits their ego. Maybe not hearing of the former opinion is due to its unpopularity - there are more people not born into wealth after all; This means you are less likely to meet a wealthy person (or be a wealthy person if this increases likelihood of meeting one), and if you did, they would be less likely to tell you of their perspective.
- 52-6F-62 5y ago
  You're misinterpreting the discussion, I think. I can't tell if it's intentional or not. Nobody was coming down on anyone for their accomplishments. My intended contribution was that some (or in my experience, many) people in already achieved positions, regardless of how they arrived in their materially advanced station, might mistake the circumstances of another who is less materially fortunate as being so because it's a product of the less fortunate person's intrinsic inner worth. And when someone, who is trying to breach those meritocratic strata for financial or other material rewards, encounters that kind of mindset in their superiors it can be terribly inhibiting—like trying to climb a hill of ice that refuses to believe it's slippery of its own accord and that the continual flailing of the climber is a failing of the climber alone. Or sometimes that would-be climber prefers to stick around the plains and enjoy the views. Neither of those situations makes the would-be climber a less-capable, less whole person—even if the would-be climber cannot see the icy hill for what it is. ("Why not pick a better hill" is about as controllable as "why not be born into a more materially advanced family")

EliRivers 5y ago

Prosperity Theology, also known as Prosperity Gospel. Some of them say that the "eye of the needle" is actually a narrow gateway in Jerusalem - a physical gateway - which is a bit tight, but you can get a camel through it, so that's what Jesus was actually talking about, so actually it is fine to be rich; you might just have to unpack your camel a bit and carry your riches through. "The prosperity gospel (also known as the “health and wealth gospel” or by its most popular brand, the “Word of Faith” movement) is a perversion of the gospel of Jesus that claims that God rewards increases in faith with increases in health and/or wealth." - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-k... And so on.

52-6F-62 5y ago

You're asking for measurements to something not measurable. I can't relate to you my experiences or the experiences of others I've known or just observed (I'm a keen observer) without just giving you anecdotes. I could counter and ask you to measurably prove that people are not looked down upon for coming from a lower station, but I think we'd have some trouble with that as well. (Christians* are some of the worst for it—coming from one who grew up "in the church") * Thought I should asterisk that so we don't go down a discussion about what makes a "true" christian. It's a broad scope and label of convenience. It's not meant to slander anyone practicing their religion. It's most certainly not isolated to Christians. Most of the encounters I've had are with people who tend to believe themselves somehow more... esoterically enlightened. It doesn't even make them bad people—just filled with hubris.

apercu 5y ago

Did you and I grow up in the same country? The entire puritan work effort is based on this premise in some way or another. The more religious you are the more you appear to believe your wealth is a god-given right and that everyone else is a lazy no-gooder trying to steal the fruits of your hard work.

vorpalhex 5y ago
Puritanism typically holds that work is required, both historically and with the remnants we might see in more conservative protestants. Love of wealth - and particularly displays of wealth - would be failures of modesty and humility which are core values. Simply having wealth, especially wealth not shown but used for charity, would be considered a result of hard work. The puritans didn't wear drab clothes because they lacked decent dyes, they wore them as an element of modesty. Alms to the poor was not considered a bad thing, it was religiously required, especially when used to evangelize. [1] - https://www.apuritansmind.com/stewardship/rykenlelandpuritansandmoney/ https://www.apuritansmind.com/stewardship/rykenlelandpuritan...

boomboomsubban 5y ago

The concept of a "wealth of the soul" is not related to the metaphysical concept of a "soul." It refers to the idea that you're born deserving the position you are given.

drakythe 5y ago

>In my experience people here are Christian You need new experiences. Only ~70% of the US claims christianity (https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/) -- and that is "claims" because we all know there are people who do not practice what they preach. If you have more than 10 friends and don't know a single non-christian, your anecdotal experience most certainly does not reflect the data. Additionally, growing up in the bible belt, in my experience, the person you responded to is correct. "God will bless you" is a common refrain when talking about working hard, tithing, saving ones self for marriage, etc. And what is God's blessing in the arena of economics (hard work) except monetary reward? The prosperity gospel of mega churches is so popular for a reason, as disgusting as those of us on the outside may find it.

Chris2048 5y ago
anecdotal experience needn't ever reflect data, since humans can cluster into similar groups.

Frondo 5y ago

It's a somewhat clumsy restatement of the just world hypothesis, which seems like it's built into much of the discourse and attitudes of American society and has almost always been dominant.

dahart 5y ago

> I’ve never met anyone who things wealth reflects “wealth of the soul.” I’ve never met anyone who would say exactly those words out loud either, and I don’t speak for the parent, but I feel like you might be taking what was an analogy extremely literally. Have you ever met or seen someone sneer at a “hippie”? Have you ever heard someone argue that we should not increase the minimum wage? Have you ever heard someone suggest that homeless people are lazy or could get work if they wanted to? Have you ever witnessed anyone saying that the success they have is due primarily to their own hard work, and not for luck or advantages? I’ve seen all of those, often, and they all fit my interpretation of the parent’s comment. Social Darwinism certainly is a thing and has been for a long time. A quick google about it brought up this article worrying that it’s a growing fad again: http://faculty.etsu.edu/odonnell/2011fall/engl3130/student_writing/social_darwinism.htm http://faculty.etsu.edu/odonnell/2011fall/engl3130/student_w... Even just Survivor Bias in business - assertions that being better than the competition got them where they are - is relatively close to believing that having money proves you’re a better person. Certainly there’s no lack in the US of fascination with rich people nor of listening to our richest citizens. (How many famous rich people can you name? How many famous poor people?)

bwh2 5y ago

There's a good book called Moral Politics which covers this topic in depth.

pnutjam 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved and others were predestined to eternal damnation

anotherman554 5y ago

Regardless of what the bible says, American Christians do not believe "...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." You might ask yourself what America would look like if american Christians believed this line. A billionaire like Donald Trump would be unelectable. The inheritance tax would be 90%. The social safety net would be larger than secular Europe. Health care would be free as a universal right.

speakersPushAir 5y ago

The myth of rugged individualism is embedded in Western society. Be thankful you live in a position of such privilege to be unaware. I highly recommend you find paths for empathy in your own life. If you're young, the hubris is unavoidable and disregard this comment. There are many places you can start your research, but maybe looking into how we leverage shame and stigma is a good start: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/mental-health/priority-areas/stigma-and-discrimination https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di...

Chris2048 5y ago
Have you started your research? Because you seem to pin ignorance on OP due to various failings (youth, privilege, lack of empathy) while assuming your own position is ultimately correct. I would assume you (and anyone else) are better placed to describe your own virtues (to support your correctness), than some strangers vices (to support their incorrectness).

commandlinefan 5y ago

> I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." I've never met one either, but I've definitely met plenty of people who think the opposite: if you had any advantages of any kind over anybody else, your accomplishments don't "count". The only people who can actually be proud of what they've achieved and deserve what they have are people who were thrown away in a dumpster at birth, grew up in a run-down, inner-city, rat-infested orphanage being beaten every day but still managed to graduate with a perfect GPA even though they had to walk five miles each way to school in the snow with no shoes.

Chris2048 5y ago
Maybe those born into positions of wealth believe the former, and those not believe in the latter - Hence each believing whatever benefits their ego. Maybe not hearing of the former opinion is due to its unpopularity - there are more people not born into wealth after all; This means you are less likely to meet a wealthy person (or be a wealthy person if this increases likelihood of meeting one), and if you did, they would be less likely to tell you of their perspective.
52-6F-62 5y ago
You're misinterpreting the discussion, I think. I can't tell if it's intentional or not. Nobody was coming down on anyone for their accomplishments. My intended contribution was that some (or in my experience, many) people in already achieved positions, regardless of how they arrived in their materially advanced station, might mistake the circumstances of another who is less materially fortunate as being so because it's a product of the less fortunate person's intrinsic inner worth. And when someone, who is trying to breach those meritocratic strata for financial or other material rewards, encounters that kind of mindset in their superiors it can be terribly inhibiting—like trying to climb a hill of ice that refuses to believe it's slippery of its own accord and that the continual flailing of the climber is a failing of the climber alone. Or sometimes that would-be climber prefers to stick around the plains and enjoy the views. Neither of those situations makes the would-be climber a less-capable, less whole person—even if the would-be climber cannot see the icy hill for what it is. ("Why not pick a better hill" is about as controllable as "why not be born into a more materially advanced family")