6 ms·

"Since all communication platforms are now free, the only way to get people to use competitive European software and services is to also offer these for free, a

"Since all communication platforms are now free, the only way to get people to use competitive European software and services is to also offer these for free, and to make sure this technology is very good and compelling" I have never seen a government or any regulation deliver anything "good and compelling", or take any other action to "make sure" someone else delivers it.

hughrr 5y ago
gov.uk is pretty excellent.
- ricardo81 5y ago
  As long as fastly is up of course!
  - hughrr 5y ago
    Haha good point :(
Bayart 5y ago
Try living in a country without roads, electric grid and water management. Those aren't granted.
iamcurious 5y ago
The moon landing is nice example.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Or going back a bit further, the mail.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    well with the mail, lysander spooner tried to (and succeeded at) setting up a private alternative and was beaten the fuck back by the government. It wasn't until the late 20th C that private mail services came back, and they are specifically abjured against delivering 1st class mail.
DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
> I have never seen a government or any regulation deliver anything "good and compelling", or take any other action to "make sure" someone else delivers it. * US Digital Service * 18F * Pubmed
dopidopHN 5y ago
Since you never witnessed the magic of governement or regulation that works, lets me give you some example. - I had a college education pay by tax payer money. - You might be old enough to remember the CFC cans? I find it good and compelling that they are illegal and a thing of the past now. It was a regulation signed in 1987, with both Russia and the US on the ticket, during a cold war. CFC are not a consumer product anymore. I have no idea if they still exists at large. - I miss some regulation that were beneficial, glass-steggal comes to mind. Anyway, all that to say, I find your statment pretty broad and easy to poke at. A last one for the road: don't you think of the children? I appreciate that child labor have been regulated out of the greedy hands of our capitalist overlords.
- brigandish 5y ago
  > I appreciate that child labor have been regulated out of the greedy hands of our capitalist overlords. Child labour ended because of capitalism. The increased income and power that begets then allowed for child labour laws to come in - it certainly didn't happen in pre-industrial societies or capitalists wouldn't have been able to employ them in the first place. Same goes for slavery, not only did economic pressure from increasing automation make it less viable but the increased wealth and power of people within society who were opposed to it meant slavery was finally ended by the most capitalistic societies the world has ever seen.
  - ndosnfiwjaijx 5y ago
    Capitalists didn't end child labor. In fact they opposed banning child labor. Had the governments not banned it, it would probably still be legal.
    - brigandish 5y ago
      This is simply not true. The UK parliament - at the time the most industrialised nation on Earth and possibly the country in which it started - was entirely stocked with land owners, all of whom would be working that land and reinvesting into it, along with many owners of factories. Owning land was a prerequisite to voting, let alone being an MP. John Fielden[1][2], one of the most notable social reformers, especially for factory workers, was the owner of a mill: > On his father’s death in 1811, Fielden and his brothers inherited the family cotton-spinning business at Todmorden, which became one of the greatest manufacturing concerns in Great Britain. Unlike most mill owners, Fielden soon became a supporter of legislation to protect factory labour. So we can see that any them and us is a false dilemma and hence, not true. Not only that, even with opposition from "most mill owners", reforms still went through (even though some MPs at times slowed it or watered down some of the reforms). So, capitalists in a capitalist society did indeed do what no other societies had done before. As Fieldsen notes in his The Curse of the Factory System: > Here, then, is the "curse" of our factory system: as improvements in machinery have gone on, the "avarice of masters" has prompted many to exact more labour from their hands than they were fitted by nature to perform, and those who have wished for the hours of labour to be less for all ages than the legislature would even yet sanction, have had no alternative but to conform more or less to the prevailing practice, or abandon the trade altogether Human greed is not limited to capitalists, but the reforms were. [1] https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fielden https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fielden [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fielden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fielden Edit: typo and, of course, formatting. Why can't we get an editor, dear HN?

hughrr 5y ago

gov.uk is pretty excellent.

ricardo81 5y ago
As long as fastly is up of course!
- hughrr 5y ago
  Haha good point :(

Bayart 5y ago

Try living in a country without roads, electric grid and water management. Those aren't granted.

iamcurious 5y ago

The moon landing is nice example.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Or going back a bit further, the mail.
- dnautics 5y ago
  well with the mail, lysander spooner tried to (and succeeded at) setting up a private alternative and was beaten the fuck back by the government. It wasn't until the late 20th C that private mail services came back, and they are specifically abjured against delivering 1st class mail.

DaiPlusPlus 5y ago

> I have never seen a government or any regulation deliver anything "good and compelling", or take any other action to "make sure" someone else delivers it. * US Digital Service * 18F * Pubmed

dopidopHN 5y ago

Since you never witnessed the magic of governement or regulation that works, lets me give you some example. - I had a college education pay by tax payer money. - You might be old enough to remember the CFC cans? I find it good and compelling that they are illegal and a thing of the past now. It was a regulation signed in 1987, with both Russia and the US on the ticket, during a cold war. CFC are not a consumer product anymore. I have no idea if they still exists at large. - I miss some regulation that were beneficial, glass-steggal comes to mind. Anyway, all that to say, I find your statment pretty broad and easy to poke at. A last one for the road: don't you think of the children? I appreciate that child labor have been regulated out of the greedy hands of our capitalist overlords.

brigandish 5y ago
> I appreciate that child labor have been regulated out of the greedy hands of our capitalist overlords. Child labour ended because of capitalism. The increased income and power that begets then allowed for child labour laws to come in - it certainly didn't happen in pre-industrial societies or capitalists wouldn't have been able to employ them in the first place. Same goes for slavery, not only did economic pressure from increasing automation make it less viable but the increased wealth and power of people within society who were opposed to it meant slavery was finally ended by the most capitalistic societies the world has ever seen.
- ndosnfiwjaijx 5y ago
  Capitalists didn't end child labor. In fact they opposed banning child labor. Had the governments not banned it, it would probably still be legal.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    This is simply not true. The UK parliament - at the time the most industrialised nation on Earth and possibly the country in which it started - was entirely stocked with land owners, all of whom would be working that land and reinvesting into it, along with many owners of factories. Owning land was a prerequisite to voting, let alone being an MP. John Fielden[1][2], one of the most notable social reformers, especially for factory workers, was the owner of a mill: > On his father’s death in 1811, Fielden and his brothers inherited the family cotton-spinning business at Todmorden, which became one of the greatest manufacturing concerns in Great Britain. Unlike most mill owners, Fielden soon became a supporter of legislation to protect factory labour. So we can see that any them and us is a false dilemma and hence, not true. Not only that, even with opposition from "most mill owners", reforms still went through (even though some MPs at times slowed it or watered down some of the reforms). So, capitalists in a capitalist society did indeed do what no other societies had done before. As Fieldsen notes in his The Curse of the Factory System: > Here, then, is the "curse" of our factory system: as improvements in machinery have gone on, the "avarice of masters" has prompted many to exact more labour from their hands than they were fitted by nature to perform, and those who have wished for the hours of labour to be less for all ages than the legislature would even yet sanction, have had no alternative but to conform more or less to the prevailing practice, or abandon the trade altogether Human greed is not limited to capitalists, but the reforms were. [1] https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fielden https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fielden [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fielden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fielden Edit: typo and, of course, formatting. Why can't we get an editor, dear HN?