4 ms·

With low budget operations there is at least the possibility of objectivity. When there is a bunch of money involved there is not. And that’s not my opinion, it

by seaorg 5y ago

With low budget operations there is at least the possibility of objectivity. When there is a bunch of money involved there is not. And that’s not my opinion, it’s the opinion and words of the technical director of CNN.

thefounder 5y ago
On the other hand if it's a low budget op it will be bought cheaply like buying troll farms or paying "influencers" to promote all kind of crap. In the end you may get the same crap but in a more distributed manner.
bildung 5y ago
There's almost zero political topics where objectivity is possible. That goal itself is usually already ideology (the goal of unbiasedness often stands in opposition of truth). Look at global warming: Either it is man-made or not, either it is a problem for our future or not. There's no objective middle ground. Sure, one could simply have news that say "there is a drougth in the center of the US, stronger than other droughts in the last 50 years", without any context. But even this is not objective, because omitting the context of global warming already skews the message. Or let's use a real historical example: The Soviet Union's invasion into Poland in 1939. Without any context, the SU is clearly the agressor. But with the context of Polands invasion into the SU in 1919 things suddenly look different. And with the additional context of Russia annecting polish territory in the 18th century it looks different again and so on and so on. There clearly is no way to communicate this objectively (i.e. in this case, pro-Russia people could ask why I'd stop here and not with some polish-lithuanian action before the 18th century).
- wruza 5y ago
  there is a drougth in the center of the US, stronger than other droughts in the last 50 years", without any context. But even this is not objective, because omitting the context of global warming already skews the message. Why? You can’t explain all the things (even if you’re backed with true data) in one article – that would take a library. A drought by itself doesn’t skew anything, but maybe your intent is more that just that. The Soviet Union's invasion into Poland in 1939 This is a circular problem. Either do not call it “invasion” or do and so be it. The fact that some monkey punched some other in year 40000 BC has nothing to do with active political contracts. I will not even downvote you on the internet if I find out that our gggps shot at each other in ww1/2, it’s irrelevant now. Most of these people are dead. If you want to remain neutral (nearest to “objective”, which isn’t a thing in case of a physical land), call it a conflict based on historical events and let a reader investigate, discuss and decide who is right and who is wrong, if any, if they ever want that decision. Maybe most people don’t really give a genuine fuck about who is right (if that was a bet, I’d go all in with it). I would even read political news then. Modern “good boys bad boys” or “oh see you see what you done” stories only make me laugh or facepalm. I’m a reader, not a puppet. No surprise younger people only want tiktok and clothes.
  - bildung 5y ago
    I think we'd first have to find common ground on what the purpose of a free press is. In my opinion the goal is to have informed citizens that can have informed participation in the democratic decision-making process. For that, we not only have to know the what, but also the why behind a news item. We have to know the relationships between things. So while we can't indeed can't explain everything completely, that doesn't mean we can't explain anything. In hindsight the drought/global warming example is bad because there can indeed be another reason for the ocurrence, but even telling multiple possible reasons (e.g. by asking an expert) makes the news item more insightful than any context at all. > This is a circular problem. Yes, that was my point! There is no arbitrary threshold where we could stop referring to things happening in the past and get unbiased news. Or yet another example: The current debate around minimum wage increases. The news could simply state the positions of the two parties, and the current nominal number of $7.25. But that wouldn't make this unbiased, because the $7.25 at inception had a different purchasing power than now. And a different ratio to GPD per capita. Thus omitting this context skews the news item towards the side that is against an increase. But adding the context favors the side that is for the increase.
    - wruza 5y ago
      what the purpose of a free press is I see it as a source of events that then can be discussed with actual people around you to create a world view. This way an information either misses you completely or you relate to a trusted group that has it. In a world where news are complete, there is nothing to discuss, because authoritative (or not, it’s hard to check) sources already said everything. This swithces discussion from learning all the details to taking the presented details. This is a problem known as “what’s not being said”, and personally I see it everywhere now. I.e. if we disagreed on an interpretation, it was you versus me (both at least knowing each other). With context-ed news it’s your sources versus my sources, which we both are unable to really check adequately, because it’s a recursive problem. That induces beliefs instead of thinking. I believe that context should be left vague at least. If there are questions, press should formulate them, not answer.
      - 5y ago
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > There's almost zero political topics where objectivity is possible. That goal itself is usually already ideology (the goal of unbiasedness often stands in opposition of truth). > Look at global warming: Either it is man-made or not, either it is a problem for our future or not. There's no objective middle ground. Sure, one could simply have news that say "there is a drougth in the center of the US, stronger than other droughts in the last 50 years", without any context. But even this is not objective, because omitting the context of global warming already skews the message. There is an objectivity here: scientific consensus, aka naked provable facts. And climate change is proven to be man-made, and it is proven that if humanity does nothing to curb CO2 emissions it will spiral out of control. Objectivity in news as a result means to not give those who go against scientific consensus any platform.
  - mlang23 5y ago
    Well, war is also man-made, and kills humans. Still, those hoping for world peace are still viewed as hopelessly naive. So what?
    - simtel20 5y ago
      What do you intend to contribute to the conversation with "so what?"
      - mlang23 5y ago
        Apparently something which you are not able to grasp.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- Retric 5y ago
  News doesn’t need to provide context. It’s possible to remove words like unprovoked from the reporting and just list the facts. We don’t hear that neutral point of view because it makes things boring. That said, push any ideology far enough and they all start to disagree with objective reality. That doesn’t mean accurate information is somehow slanted or facts are somehow political because objective reality doesn’t care, it just is. If every day you list the ~9,250 Americans that died yesterday you’re going to cover mostly natural causes but also plenty of hot button issues for both sides of the isle.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    There is insufficient time to list every fact from every event. The distillation of facts down to what is and is not relevant itself will introduce some level of bias. Ideally, the goal would be to minimize bias, however I see the opposite many times, and I see it actually as a result of reduced revenue for people that make news. We, the public at large, responded to information that evokes emotion (especially outrage). We rewarded it with clicks, translating into money for the people that collect and curate it for us. And that is what we get now. We get information, that has been compressed, and while factual many times, it is without the necessary context to come to an appropriate conclusion. I think the antidote to this might be consumers rewarding publishers and journalists that wait before publishing. They wait so that there is time for the relevant facts to be gathered, there is time for the editors and journalists to write and edit properly. And, to still keep in mind, that it is still insanely difficult to provide all of the context needed about a situation to have an inexperienced person come to a proper conclusion. As one should know if they have ever read an article about a field they are intimately familiar with and have spent thousands of hours in.
    - Retric 5y ago
      > There is insufficient time to list every fact from every event. Facts relating to events aren’t news their just facts. > The distillation of facts down to what is and is not relevant itself will introduce some level of bias. You can come up with the threshold for what’s news long before individual stories show up. It’s filtering based on political context that’s the problem not simply filtering. Aka, decide ahead of time that a president being impeached is news that’s fine. However, if your coverage depends on their party affiliation that’s a problem. > provide all of the context needed about a situation to have an inexperienced person come to a proper conclusion. I don’t see why people need to be making conclusions from the news. A Twitter account tweeting any earthquake over 7.0 is fine on it’s own.
- cpursley 5y ago
  For something more recent, the Russian annexation of Crimea. Or rejoining depending on how you interpret history (or get your news) - but western media leaves the important historical bits out because they have a specific political agenda.

by seaorg 5y ago

thefounder 5y ago

On the other hand if it's a low budget op it will be bought cheaply like buying troll farms or paying "influencers" to promote all kind of crap. In the end you may get the same crap but in a more distributed manner.

bildung 5y ago

There's almost zero political topics where objectivity is possible. That goal itself is usually already ideology (the goal of unbiasedness often stands in opposition of truth). Look at global warming: Either it is man-made or not, either it is a problem for our future or not. There's no objective middle ground. Sure, one could simply have news that say "there is a drougth in the center of the US, stronger than other droughts in the last 50 years", without any context. But even this is not objective, because omitting the context of global warming already skews the message. Or let's use a real historical example: The Soviet Union's invasion into Poland in 1939. Without any context, the SU is clearly the agressor. But with the context of Polands invasion into the SU in 1919 things suddenly look different. And with the additional context of Russia annecting polish territory in the 18th century it looks different again and so on and so on. There clearly is no way to communicate this objectively (i.e. in this case, pro-Russia people could ask why I'd stop here and not with some polish-lithuanian action before the 18th century).

wruza 5y ago
there is a drougth in the center of the US, stronger than other droughts in the last 50 years", without any context. But even this is not objective, because omitting the context of global warming already skews the message. Why? You can’t explain all the things (even if you’re backed with true data) in one article – that would take a library. A drought by itself doesn’t skew anything, but maybe your intent is more that just that. The Soviet Union's invasion into Poland in 1939 This is a circular problem. Either do not call it “invasion” or do and so be it. The fact that some monkey punched some other in year 40000 BC has nothing to do with active political contracts. I will not even downvote you on the internet if I find out that our gggps shot at each other in ww1/2, it’s irrelevant now. Most of these people are dead. If you want to remain neutral (nearest to “objective”, which isn’t a thing in case of a physical land), call it a conflict based on historical events and let a reader investigate, discuss and decide who is right and who is wrong, if any, if they ever want that decision. Maybe most people don’t really give a genuine fuck about who is right (if that was a bet, I’d go all in with it). I would even read political news then. Modern “good boys bad boys” or “oh see you see what you done” stories only make me laugh or facepalm. I’m a reader, not a puppet. No surprise younger people only want tiktok and clothes.
- bildung 5y ago
  I think we'd first have to find common ground on what the purpose of a free press is. In my opinion the goal is to have informed citizens that can have informed participation in the democratic decision-making process. For that, we not only have to know the what, but also the why behind a news item. We have to know the relationships between things. So while we can't indeed can't explain everything completely, that doesn't mean we can't explain anything. In hindsight the drought/global warming example is bad because there can indeed be another reason for the ocurrence, but even telling multiple possible reasons (e.g. by asking an expert) makes the news item more insightful than any context at all. > This is a circular problem. Yes, that was my point! There is no arbitrary threshold where we could stop referring to things happening in the past and get unbiased news. Or yet another example: The current debate around minimum wage increases. The news could simply state the positions of the two parties, and the current nominal number of $7.25. But that wouldn't make this unbiased, because the $7.25 at inception had a different purchasing power than now. And a different ratio to GPD per capita. Thus omitting this context skews the news item towards the side that is against an increase. But adding the context favors the side that is for the increase.
  - wruza 5y ago
    what the purpose of a free press is I see it as a source of events that then can be discussed with actual people around you to create a world view. This way an information either misses you completely or you relate to a trusted group that has it. In a world where news are complete, there is nothing to discuss, because authoritative (or not, it’s hard to check) sources already said everything. This swithces discussion from learning all the details to taking the presented details. This is a problem known as “what’s not being said”, and personally I see it everywhere now. I.e. if we disagreed on an interpretation, it was you versus me (both at least knowing each other). With context-ed news it’s your sources versus my sources, which we both are unable to really check adequately, because it’s a recursive problem. That induces beliefs instead of thinking. I believe that context should be left vague at least. If there are questions, press should formulate them, not answer.
    - 5y ago
mschuster91 5y ago
> There's almost zero political topics where objectivity is possible. That goal itself is usually already ideology (the goal of unbiasedness often stands in opposition of truth). > Look at global warming: Either it is man-made or not, either it is a problem for our future or not. There's no objective middle ground. Sure, one could simply have news that say "there is a drougth in the center of the US, stronger than other droughts in the last 50 years", without any context. But even this is not objective, because omitting the context of global warming already skews the message. There is an objectivity here: scientific consensus, aka naked provable facts. And climate change is proven to be man-made, and it is proven that if humanity does nothing to curb CO2 emissions it will spiral out of control. Objectivity in news as a result means to not give those who go against scientific consensus any platform.
- mlang23 5y ago
  Well, war is also man-made, and kills humans. Still, those hoping for world peace are still viewed as hopelessly naive. So what?
  - simtel20 5y ago
    What do you intend to contribute to the conversation with "so what?"
    - mlang23 5y ago
      Apparently something which you are not able to grasp.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
Retric 5y ago
News doesn’t need to provide context. It’s possible to remove words like unprovoked from the reporting and just list the facts. We don’t hear that neutral point of view because it makes things boring. That said, push any ideology far enough and they all start to disagree with objective reality. That doesn’t mean accurate information is somehow slanted or facts are somehow political because objective reality doesn’t care, it just is. If every day you list the ~9,250 Americans that died yesterday you’re going to cover mostly natural causes but also plenty of hot button issues for both sides of the isle.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  There is insufficient time to list every fact from every event. The distillation of facts down to what is and is not relevant itself will introduce some level of bias. Ideally, the goal would be to minimize bias, however I see the opposite many times, and I see it actually as a result of reduced revenue for people that make news. We, the public at large, responded to information that evokes emotion (especially outrage). We rewarded it with clicks, translating into money for the people that collect and curate it for us. And that is what we get now. We get information, that has been compressed, and while factual many times, it is without the necessary context to come to an appropriate conclusion. I think the antidote to this might be consumers rewarding publishers and journalists that wait before publishing. They wait so that there is time for the relevant facts to be gathered, there is time for the editors and journalists to write and edit properly. And, to still keep in mind, that it is still insanely difficult to provide all of the context needed about a situation to have an inexperienced person come to a proper conclusion. As one should know if they have ever read an article about a field they are intimately familiar with and have spent thousands of hours in.
  - Retric 5y ago
    > There is insufficient time to list every fact from every event. Facts relating to events aren’t news their just facts. > The distillation of facts down to what is and is not relevant itself will introduce some level of bias. You can come up with the threshold for what’s news long before individual stories show up. It’s filtering based on political context that’s the problem not simply filtering. Aka, decide ahead of time that a president being impeached is news that’s fine. However, if your coverage depends on their party affiliation that’s a problem. > provide all of the context needed about a situation to have an inexperienced person come to a proper conclusion. I don’t see why people need to be making conclusions from the news. A Twitter account tweeting any earthquake over 7.0 is fine on it’s own.
cpursley 5y ago
For something more recent, the Russian annexation of Crimea. Or rejoining depending on how you interpret history (or get your news) - but western media leaves the important historical bits out because they have a specific political agenda.