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Sure. Tools like that have been around since the ‘70s. They have their uses — building forms and reports point-and-click. But the limited scope and inevitable l

Sure. Tools like that have been around since the ‘70s. They have their uses — building forms and reports point-and-click. But the limited scope and inevitable low ceiling of capabilities means they did not spell the end of programmers. Instead they expand the market because the non-programmers will need help when they outgrow their tools, or even sooner when they can’t figure out a JOIN or GROUP BY or how to handle record locks.

jacquesm 5y ago
No, this is a lot better than what was sold during the 70's, 80's and up to the mid 2000's. I'm aware of all of those developments, was regularly pitched about them and have evaluated the bulk of the solutions on offer, from Mimer, Mapper and other mainframe based solutions to the various offerings on PCs and UNIX platforms. Those are not to be compared to the three I mentioned above. Agreed on the fact that these lead to market expansion and that they typically are only good up to a certain point but the examples you give are solved problems for a long time now.
- garyrob 5y ago
  "Mendix, Betty Blocks, Outsystems" Interesting. I've never even heard of any of those products. They must be in some completely different space than I'm operating in. In 1980 I was a database consultant, with a long-term account at NY Telephone. Their marketing department mainly used a 4GL called NOMAD. I have to say, it was really great for creating hierarchical databases and for formatting complex reports from it. In fact, when I moved on from that world, I've always missed it since then. Nothing I've used since then has actually worked as well as NOMAD for the purpose of generating reports from data. SQL did many of the same things, but not as easily. (And even though it was based on a hierarchical DB, you could do operations that were basically SQL's joins. So it was both relational and hierarchical. Although I'm not sure whether the word "relational" was used in that way at the time.) And at that time there was talk about how in 10 or 20 years even those 4GLs wouldn't be necessary any more because software would generate itself from specifications. I sure haven't seen that happening. In fact, my personal experience has been that, at least for what NOMAD was built to do, nothing since then has even done it as easily. But then again, I haven't even heard of the tools you named!! Are they just not popular yet because they haven't had time to reach their full audiences, or are they only used in very specific niches such that they don't have a lot of presence in places such as Hacker News?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I'm aware of NOMAD, fond memories in fact :) Yes, they are somewhat niche. Mendix got bought out by Siemens, Betty Blocks is an interesting dutch start-up. I came across all three of them in the last year and they've made me re-consider my point of view towards no-code/low code environments, which I used to believe are niche and/or toys. I think they are entering the mainstream and will find a spot somewhere between 'excel' and proper programming (in so far as stringing together API calls is still proper programming ;) ).
- gregjor 5y ago
  We’re not disagreeing. The new batch of no-code/low-code tools may find a niche and help some non-programmers solve real problems. I see that with Excel, WordPress, Shopify, even SalesForce and Hubspot all the time. I don’t agree that “80% of tech” (whatever that means) will be built by non-programmers in two years. The hype about new tools (or AI) replacing skilled programmers comes around like clockwork because lots of managers and executives would love to see that happen. Programmers are expensive, in-demand (so hard to find and keep) and often temperamental and hard to manage. That part of the dream is bullshit. If these tools do find a niche they can only expand the amount of software out there, creating a larger pool of work for programmers. Microwave ovens didn’t replace regular ovens and stoves, nor did they democratize cooking for the masses. No chefs hung up their hats and said “game over.” They are a convenience, a shortcut. If you want a real meal you cook or have someone who knows how cook for you.
- earleybird 5y ago
  Mapper - I've still got the t-shirt somewhere :-)

jacquesm 5y ago

No, this is a lot better than what was sold during the 70's, 80's and up to the mid 2000's. I'm aware of all of those developments, was regularly pitched about them and have evaluated the bulk of the solutions on offer, from Mimer, Mapper and other mainframe based solutions to the various offerings on PCs and UNIX platforms. Those are not to be compared to the three I mentioned above. Agreed on the fact that these lead to market expansion and that they typically are only good up to a certain point but the examples you give are solved problems for a long time now.

garyrob 5y ago
"Mendix, Betty Blocks, Outsystems" Interesting. I've never even heard of any of those products. They must be in some completely different space than I'm operating in. In 1980 I was a database consultant, with a long-term account at NY Telephone. Their marketing department mainly used a 4GL called NOMAD. I have to say, it was really great for creating hierarchical databases and for formatting complex reports from it. In fact, when I moved on from that world, I've always missed it since then. Nothing I've used since then has actually worked as well as NOMAD for the purpose of generating reports from data. SQL did many of the same things, but not as easily. (And even though it was based on a hierarchical DB, you could do operations that were basically SQL's joins. So it was both relational and hierarchical. Although I'm not sure whether the word "relational" was used in that way at the time.) And at that time there was talk about how in 10 or 20 years even those 4GLs wouldn't be necessary any more because software would generate itself from specifications. I sure haven't seen that happening. In fact, my personal experience has been that, at least for what NOMAD was built to do, nothing since then has even done it as easily. But then again, I haven't even heard of the tools you named!! Are they just not popular yet because they haven't had time to reach their full audiences, or are they only used in very specific niches such that they don't have a lot of presence in places such as Hacker News?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I'm aware of NOMAD, fond memories in fact :) Yes, they are somewhat niche. Mendix got bought out by Siemens, Betty Blocks is an interesting dutch start-up. I came across all three of them in the last year and they've made me re-consider my point of view towards no-code/low code environments, which I used to believe are niche and/or toys. I think they are entering the mainstream and will find a spot somewhere between 'excel' and proper programming (in so far as stringing together API calls is still proper programming ;) ).
gregjor 5y ago
We’re not disagreeing. The new batch of no-code/low-code tools may find a niche and help some non-programmers solve real problems. I see that with Excel, WordPress, Shopify, even SalesForce and Hubspot all the time. I don’t agree that “80% of tech” (whatever that means) will be built by non-programmers in two years. The hype about new tools (or AI) replacing skilled programmers comes around like clockwork because lots of managers and executives would love to see that happen. Programmers are expensive, in-demand (so hard to find and keep) and often temperamental and hard to manage. That part of the dream is bullshit. If these tools do find a niche they can only expand the amount of software out there, creating a larger pool of work for programmers. Microwave ovens didn’t replace regular ovens and stoves, nor did they democratize cooking for the masses. No chefs hung up their hats and said “game over.” They are a convenience, a shortcut. If you want a real meal you cook or have someone who knows how cook for you.
earleybird 5y ago
Mapper - I've still got the t-shirt somewhere :-)