4 ms·

>agents were not allowed to download or read any messages sent from AN0M accounts in the United States because of privacy laws. "Privacy laws" being the Fourth

>agents were not allowed to download or read any messages sent from AN0M accounts in the United States because of privacy laws. "Privacy laws" being the Fourth Amendment, which the article still makes it sound like they violated by downloading all the messages three times a week.

kube-system 5y ago
> By the end of 2019, this third country was sending data to the FBI every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, according to the court document. > "This data comprises the encrypted messages of all the users of AN0MS with a few exceptions," the document reads. > Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. Sounds like the FBI got the data of everyone except the US users.
- mannerheim 5y ago
  Isn't this the classic Five Eyes loophole? I'll spy on you, you'll spy on me, and we'll exchange notes.
  - creato 5y ago
    The US is explicitly not getting data on US citizens from foreign spying according to this article? And the article implies that no loophole was needed for Australia to get data on Australians, there was a legal warrant for that in Australia. So how is this the "classic Five Eyes loophole"?
    - mannerheim 5y ago
      Indeed, I suppose not, then.
    - 34679 5y ago
      >It notes while Australia's judicial order "did not allow for the sharing of the content with foreign partners" the AFP "shared generally" with the FBI the nature of the conversations occurring over AN0M.
    - helsinkiandrew 5y ago
      It was accidentally leaked that the UK GCHQ had provided intelligence about the US perpetrators of the Times Square 2010 car bomb attack, so it probably does happen. Although the US ANOM data wasn't sent to the FBI, presumably a foreign agency could see that data and tell the FBI which US citizens might be involved in illegal activity so they can be monitored/investigated in other ways.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    The article says that Australia would alert the US. "AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life"."
  - geoffmunn 5y ago
    In New Zealand, immigration send details of selected individuals to US Homeland Security for further analysis. The reason it goes to the US is because we (NZ) don't have the resources to do what the US does. Homeland Security specifically promises to delete any data once they've finished, but it doesn't say anything about the agencies that they presumably share it with. Basically if the US wants data on particular people from the Five Eyes network, it can be arranged. And once it's in Langley, it can go anywhere.
  - teclordphrack2 5y ago
    Yes, its a feature not a bug.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  That is what it sounds like, but it doesn't actually say that. Additionally, I don't know how this other country could even be expected to sift out American data, even their soft claim only rules out phones in America.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  > Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. > The affidavit noted that if any other AN0M handsets "landed in the US" the AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life". The FBI might not have been the one peeking in the window but they had friends willing to peek on their behalf. A mild inconvenience they can parallel construct around.
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    Parallel construction is actually quite difficult; it requires an independent chain of evidence not built upon the illegally-acquired evidence. We hear about the cases where parallel construction worked because those cases are rare, and thus are news. We don't hear about the vast majority of cases where the police couldn't parallel construct their way around 4th Amendment violations.
    - voxic11 5y ago
      If the parallel construction worked then we wouldn't know it had occurred. There are multiple officials on record saying parallel construction is a widespread practice and "used every day". > The two senior DEA officials, who spoke on behalf of the agency but only on condition of anonymity, said the process is kept secret to protect sources and investigative methods. "Parallel construction is a law enforcement technique we use every day," one official said. "It's decades old, a bedrock concept." https://web.archive.org/web/20130809014315/https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://web.archive.org/web/20130809014315/https://www.reute...
      - gamblor956 5y ago
        Yes, I don't doubt at the federal level that parallel construction works better than it does at the local level, because the feds have jurisdiction over bigger crimes. Drug crimes, involving multinational criminal organizations, generally involve many participants and transactions, and you only need to break 1 participant in a conspiracy to unravel the whole thing. (And more importantly, due to the many overlapping crimes being committed toward the common end, there are simply more options for pursuing parallel construction or even just pursuing different crimes.) But at the local level where most crimes occur, parallel construction is a fantasy for the overwhelming majority of cases. Cops would absolutely love if they could just parallel their way around tainted evidence, but in most cases, there's only one crime, and only one trail of evidence, and there's no way to parallel around that. (And I speak from experience; I was a public defender before I went into tax. I've seen many more failed attempts at parallel construction than successful attempts.)
mianos 5y ago
Isn't doubly weird that the third country was Romania?
- shadowythroaway 5y ago
  Source?
- yawaworht1978 5y ago
  Do you have a link for that? Am curious to see.
  - mianos 5y ago
    From the analysis published a few months ago, believed to be the reason the operation was would up: https://web.archive.org/web/20210608102417/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bP-g6VgD1JcJ:https://anomexposed.wordpress.com/2021/03/29/anom-encrpted-scam-exposed/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au https://web.archive.org/web/20210608102417/https://webcache.... All the data was sent to some sever in Bucharest.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      I don't understand why that would be weird. Romania had(has?) black sites for the CIA, hosting a server for the FBI isn't strange.
rurban 5y ago
More like that they didn't go to a judge. Without court order it is much easier to continue working in the illegal underground. So they couldn't make arrests of their informants.
pc86 5y ago
Yes, referring to 4A as a "privacy law" is sort of the jurisprudential equivalent of calling Tim Berners-Lee a "web developer."

kube-system 5y ago

> By the end of 2019, this third country was sending data to the FBI every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, according to the court document. > "This data comprises the encrypted messages of all the users of AN0MS with a few exceptions," the document reads. > Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. Sounds like the FBI got the data of everyone except the US users.

mannerheim 5y ago
Isn't this the classic Five Eyes loophole? I'll spy on you, you'll spy on me, and we'll exchange notes.
- creato 5y ago
  The US is explicitly not getting data on US citizens from foreign spying according to this article? And the article implies that no loophole was needed for Australia to get data on Australians, there was a legal warrant for that in Australia. So how is this the "classic Five Eyes loophole"?
  - mannerheim 5y ago
    Indeed, I suppose not, then.
  - 34679 5y ago
    >It notes while Australia's judicial order "did not allow for the sharing of the content with foreign partners" the AFP "shared generally" with the FBI the nature of the conversations occurring over AN0M.
  - helsinkiandrew 5y ago
    It was accidentally leaked that the UK GCHQ had provided intelligence about the US perpetrators of the Times Square 2010 car bomb attack, so it probably does happen. Although the US ANOM data wasn't sent to the FBI, presumably a foreign agency could see that data and tell the FBI which US citizens might be involved in illegal activity so they can be monitored/investigated in other ways.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  The article says that Australia would alert the US. "AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life"."
- geoffmunn 5y ago
  In New Zealand, immigration send details of selected individuals to US Homeland Security for further analysis. The reason it goes to the US is because we (NZ) don't have the resources to do what the US does. Homeland Security specifically promises to delete any data once they've finished, but it doesn't say anything about the agencies that they presumably share it with. Basically if the US wants data on particular people from the Five Eyes network, it can be arranged. And once it's in Langley, it can go anywhere.
- teclordphrack2 5y ago
  Yes, its a feature not a bug.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
That is what it sounds like, but it doesn't actually say that. Additionally, I don't know how this other country could even be expected to sift out American data, even their soft claim only rules out phones in America.
elliekelly 5y ago
> Those exceptions included approximately 15 AN0M users in the United States. > The affidavit noted that if any other AN0M handsets "landed in the US" the AFP agreed to monitor them "for any threats to life". The FBI might not have been the one peeking in the window but they had friends willing to peek on their behalf. A mild inconvenience they can parallel construct around.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  Parallel construction is actually quite difficult; it requires an independent chain of evidence not built upon the illegally-acquired evidence. We hear about the cases where parallel construction worked because those cases are rare, and thus are news. We don't hear about the vast majority of cases where the police couldn't parallel construct their way around 4th Amendment violations.
  - voxic11 5y ago
    If the parallel construction worked then we wouldn't know it had occurred. There are multiple officials on record saying parallel construction is a widespread practice and "used every day". > The two senior DEA officials, who spoke on behalf of the agency but only on condition of anonymity, said the process is kept secret to protect sources and investigative methods. "Parallel construction is a law enforcement technique we use every day," one official said. "It's decades old, a bedrock concept." https://web.archive.org/web/20130809014315/https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://web.archive.org/web/20130809014315/https://www.reute...
    - gamblor956 5y ago
      Yes, I don't doubt at the federal level that parallel construction works better than it does at the local level, because the feds have jurisdiction over bigger crimes. Drug crimes, involving multinational criminal organizations, generally involve many participants and transactions, and you only need to break 1 participant in a conspiracy to unravel the whole thing. (And more importantly, due to the many overlapping crimes being committed toward the common end, there are simply more options for pursuing parallel construction or even just pursuing different crimes.) But at the local level where most crimes occur, parallel construction is a fantasy for the overwhelming majority of cases. Cops would absolutely love if they could just parallel their way around tainted evidence, but in most cases, there's only one crime, and only one trail of evidence, and there's no way to parallel around that. (And I speak from experience; I was a public defender before I went into tax. I've seen many more failed attempts at parallel construction than successful attempts.)

mianos 5y ago

Isn't doubly weird that the third country was Romania?

shadowythroaway 5y ago
Source?
yawaworht1978 5y ago
Do you have a link for that? Am curious to see.
- mianos 5y ago
  From the analysis published a few months ago, believed to be the reason the operation was would up: https://web.archive.org/web/20210608102417/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bP-g6VgD1JcJ:https://anomexposed.wordpress.com/2021/03/29/anom-encrpted-scam-exposed/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au https://web.archive.org/web/20210608102417/https://webcache.... All the data was sent to some sever in Bucharest.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    I don't understand why that would be weird. Romania had(has?) black sites for the CIA, hosting a server for the FBI isn't strange.

rurban 5y ago

More like that they didn't go to a judge. Without court order it is much easier to continue working in the illegal underground. So they couldn't make arrests of their informants.

pc86 5y ago

Yes, referring to 4A as a "privacy law" is sort of the jurisprudential equivalent of calling Tim Berners-Lee a "web developer."