4 ms·

> Universities are centers for teaching, research, and community. But that broader social mission is exactly why universities shouldn’t go off and form a patent

> Universities are centers for teaching, research, and community. But that broader social mission is exactly why universities shouldn’t go off and form a patent-holding company that is designed to operate similarly to a patent troll. The problem is that mission requires money. Lots of money. Researchers need pay (and many already earn next to nothing). Researchers need equipment. I get why this is disquieting, but it also has hints of the idea that charities should be run with the cheapest people available, even in critical executive positions. As a society we have decided that we don't really want to fund that mission all that well, so this is what they come up with. And if they abide by the gentleman's agreement to not go after small businesses, the other harm should be minimized. I am not sure that I agree with it but the money would at least likely go back into academia so I am not a visceral no.

mannerheim 5y ago
Universities are making plenty of money. At this point, they're hedge funds with schools attached to them. Harvard has a $38 billion endowment, Yale $29 billion, Princeton $26 billion.
- emsign 5y ago
  Yes, and with the money come higher prices and bigger administrative overhead. Because they can get the funds they will charge more.
  - gravypod 5y ago
    It's unfortunate we live in this world. Harvard takes in ~2k/year. Each student stays for ~4 years. This means ~10k are on campus at any time. Harvard costs ~50k/year. This means it costs ~500,000,000/year for all of Harvard's student bodies. If Harvard has a 38b endowment they can spend on education (they probably don't, probably named buildings) they could fund ~76 years of Harvard without charging a dime to students. I wish we lived in the world that was possible. Also, could we reduce college costs by: mandating college credit transfer and allowing students to test out of unlimited classes. I tested out of 3 classes for my degree (the max) just using my ~8 years of experience as a programmer. I wasted so much time on courses I knew the material for. If I could just get a pile of study materials and tests I would have saved buckets.
    - MattGaiser 5y ago
      Harvard has 21,000 students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University And very generous financial aid. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordability#:~:text=If%20your%20family's%20income%20is,%2C%20you'll%20pay%20nothing.&text=For%20more%20than%20ninety%20percent,regardless%20of%20nationality%20or%20citizenship https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordabi....
    - dantheman 5y ago
      Harvard isn't the problem; the problem is insane housing costs and crazy administrator salaries at other institutions. Harvard et al aren't the problem with student debt.
    - whakim 5y ago
      Ivy+ institutions aren't saddling their students with crippling debt (although many others - including supposedly affordable "public" universities - are). Instead they're simply failing to support students from underprivileged/diverse backgrounds once they're in the door and can be safely put on a campus brochure.
    - andi999 5y ago
      And after 76 years? Harvard was founded in 1636 so if they thought like this before they wouldn't have been around anymore.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - gspr 5y ago
      The situation is far better in Europe (minus UK) though. A lot of the negatives portrayed in this thread are also happening here (the esoteric character professors becoming fewer and fewer, the paper production labs with little passion or spark for the actual research, the ever-shrinking time for actual research, etc…), but the situation of unaffordable or crippling-debt-inducing tuition is still not the norm here.
- Google234 5y ago
  On a similar note, I don’t get why people want government support services. People are making plenty of money! Just look at Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos.
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    This is really disingenous. We're not talking about Puhduka State here; the universities involved are literally the majolrity of the richest schools in the entire country. It's exactly like Gates and Bezos asking for public hand-outs, not denying help to many because there are a few rich people out there.
    - hardwaresofton 5y ago
      Pretty sure that commenter was doing a joke/sarcasm [EDIT] - I hope*
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Because there is worthwhile work that will never capture the interest of Gates or Bezos. For example, testing vehicle emissions is never going to be a billionaire interest project. Of great societal interest? Absolutely. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/business/vw-wvu-diesel-volkswagen-west-virginia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/business/vw-wvu-diesel-vo...
  - mannerheim 5y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is with this comment. GP was saying the universities need a patent troll company because they need money. But universities are already making plenty of money.
  - Qwertious 5y ago
    /s? Picking those two are the least representative sample possible.
    - unishark 5y ago
      And what set of universities would form the least representative sample possible?
- ksec 5y ago
  >Harvard has a $38 billion endowment, Yale $29 billion, Princeton $26 billion. Holy Mother of God. I had to fact check this. But it turns out Wiki had a whole page [1] on it. Valued at $40.9 billion as of 2019. And [2] with the list of US university endowment. And on average 10 to 20 times the size of UK universities [3]. $40 BILLION US dollars? And the insane amount of Student Debt? ( portrayed by MSM anyway, I didn't look much into it ). Again there are just lots of thing across the pond lots of people from the outside fail to comprehend. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_endowment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_endowment [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universit... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_endowment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_Un...
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    > And the insane amount of Student Debt? ( portrayed by MSM anyway, I didn't look much into it ). Presumably not from Harvard students. They have very generous financial aid. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordability#:~:text=If%20your%20family's%20income%20is,%2C%20you'll%20pay%20nothing.&text=For%20more%20than%20ninety%20percent,regardless%20of%20nationality%20or%20citizenship https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordabi....
    - enjoyyourlife 5y ago
      Even people with no income still need to pay. See https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/8/4/hill-elimininate-work-expectation/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/8/4/hill-elimininate...
      - MagnumOpus 5y ago
        They don't, if you read the article. The $3,000 is not tuition, it's just a requirement to show this much cash from work or borrowing for non-tuition expenses, in order for Harvard to pay their tuition.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
skeeter2020 5y ago
>> the money would at least likely go back into academia so I am not a visceral no. I'm not sure how involved/aware of US universities you've been in the past 20+ years but this just isn't true. Tuition costs have skyrocketed because when you can't ever get away from student debts it turns out there's lots of people willing to lend you unlimited funds. Endowments at the majority of the universities listed here have grown enormously in the past several decades, and have unicorn returns in the past few years. And yet the amount of money going into research and pedagody hasn't really grown at all. Why? it's all going to adminstrative overhead. Just like the article states here, most schools can't even cover the cost of their technology transfer and licensing overhead (more administration) so they're going to squeeze those who can't lawyer up vs. actually provide valuable IP. These are not charities regardless of their taxable status. The pay of top administrators at Harvard is actually determined by the Harvard Corporation, and in addition to incredible benefits and sweet lifetime deals they're all making well over $500K a year in salary. HMC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Harvard is even more ridiculous, with the top 5 bureaucrats all earning between 4.5 and 6 MILLION dollars a year in salary. This has nothing to do with research and teaching.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  This comment is why I mentioned the part about charities, where we expect people who are on a mission to do it for peanuts and a shoestring budget or else they are not virtuous. >I'm not sure how involved/aware of US universities you've been in the past 20+ years but this just isn't true. Tuition costs have skyrocketed because when you can't ever get away from student debts it turns out there's lots of people willing to lend you unlimited funds. I didn't say it was going to tuition, just academia. Academia is a lot more than flocks of students in a lecture hall. > And yet the amount of money going into research and pedagody hasn't really grown at all. It has at Harvard. Would surprise me if it hasn't at the other listed schools as well. https://www.statista.com/statistics/697606/rnd-expenditure-harvard-university/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/697606/rnd-expenditure-h... > The pay of top administrators at Harvard is actually determined by the Harvard Corporation, and in addition to incredible benefits and sweet lifetime deals they're all making well over $500K a year in salary. So the leaders of one of the most important academic institutions in the world make the same as a middle career software engineer at a FAANG? If anything, they seem underpaid. > HMC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Harvard is even more ridiculous, with the top 5 bureaucrats all earning between 4.5 and 6 MILLION dollars a year in salary. Because that is what people who manage 40 billion dollars earn. We go back to expecting charity people to earn fractions of their market rate.
varnaud 5y ago
Totally agree with you. Universities need ways to finance themselves. Tech companies are expert at avoiding paying taxes that could be used to pay for the research and this patent trolling could be an attempt to get some of that money back using the broken rules of the current system.

mannerheim 5y ago

Universities are making plenty of money. At this point, they're hedge funds with schools attached to them. Harvard has a $38 billion endowment, Yale $29 billion, Princeton $26 billion.

emsign 5y ago
Yes, and with the money come higher prices and bigger administrative overhead. Because they can get the funds they will charge more.
- gravypod 5y ago
  It's unfortunate we live in this world. Harvard takes in ~2k/year. Each student stays for ~4 years. This means ~10k are on campus at any time. Harvard costs ~50k/year. This means it costs ~500,000,000/year for all of Harvard's student bodies. If Harvard has a 38b endowment they can spend on education (they probably don't, probably named buildings) they could fund ~76 years of Harvard without charging a dime to students. I wish we lived in the world that was possible. Also, could we reduce college costs by: mandating college credit transfer and allowing students to test out of unlimited classes. I tested out of 3 classes for my degree (the max) just using my ~8 years of experience as a programmer. I wasted so much time on courses I knew the material for. If I could just get a pile of study materials and tests I would have saved buckets.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Harvard has 21,000 students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University And very generous financial aid. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordability#:~:text=If%20your%20family's%20income%20is,%2C%20you'll%20pay%20nothing.&text=For%20more%20than%20ninety%20percent,regardless%20of%20nationality%20or%20citizenship https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordabi....
  - dantheman 5y ago
    Harvard isn't the problem; the problem is insane housing costs and crazy administrator salaries at other institutions. Harvard et al aren't the problem with student debt.
  - whakim 5y ago
    Ivy+ institutions aren't saddling their students with crippling debt (although many others - including supposedly affordable "public" universities - are). Instead they're simply failing to support students from underprivileged/diverse backgrounds once they're in the door and can be safely put on a campus brochure.
  - andi999 5y ago
    And after 76 years? Harvard was founded in 1636 so if they thought like this before they wouldn't have been around anymore.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - gspr 5y ago
    The situation is far better in Europe (minus UK) though. A lot of the negatives portrayed in this thread are also happening here (the esoteric character professors becoming fewer and fewer, the paper production labs with little passion or spark for the actual research, the ever-shrinking time for actual research, etc…), but the situation of unaffordable or crippling-debt-inducing tuition is still not the norm here.
Google234 5y ago
On a similar note, I don’t get why people want government support services. People are making plenty of money! Just look at Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  This is really disingenous. We're not talking about Puhduka State here; the universities involved are literally the majolrity of the richest schools in the entire country. It's exactly like Gates and Bezos asking for public hand-outs, not denying help to many because there are a few rich people out there.
  - hardwaresofton 5y ago
    Pretty sure that commenter was doing a joke/sarcasm [EDIT] - I hope*
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Because there is worthwhile work that will never capture the interest of Gates or Bezos. For example, testing vehicle emissions is never going to be a billionaire interest project. Of great societal interest? Absolutely. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/business/vw-wvu-diesel-volkswagen-west-virginia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/business/vw-wvu-diesel-vo...
- mannerheim 5y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is with this comment. GP was saying the universities need a patent troll company because they need money. But universities are already making plenty of money.
- Qwertious 5y ago
  /s? Picking those two are the least representative sample possible.
  - unishark 5y ago
    And what set of universities would form the least representative sample possible?
ksec 5y ago
>Harvard has a $38 billion endowment, Yale $29 billion, Princeton $26 billion. Holy Mother of God. I had to fact check this. But it turns out Wiki had a whole page [1] on it. Valued at $40.9 billion as of 2019. And [2] with the list of US university endowment. And on average 10 to 20 times the size of UK universities [3]. $40 BILLION US dollars? And the insane amount of Student Debt? ( portrayed by MSM anyway, I didn't look much into it ). Again there are just lots of thing across the pond lots of people from the outside fail to comprehend. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_endowment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_endowment [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universit... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_endowment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_Un...
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > And the insane amount of Student Debt? ( portrayed by MSM anyway, I didn't look much into it ). Presumably not from Harvard students. They have very generous financial aid. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordability#:~:text=If%20your%20family's%20income%20is,%2C%20you'll%20pay%20nothing.&text=For%20more%20than%20ninety%20percent,regardless%20of%20nationality%20or%20citizenship https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordabi....
  - enjoyyourlife 5y ago
    Even people with no income still need to pay. See https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/8/4/hill-elimininate-work-expectation/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/8/4/hill-elimininate...
    - MagnumOpus 5y ago
      They don't, if you read the article. The $3,000 is not tuition, it's just a requirement to show this much cash from work or borrowing for non-tuition expenses, in order for Harvard to pay their tuition.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

skeeter2020 5y ago

>> the money would at least likely go back into academia so I am not a visceral no. I'm not sure how involved/aware of US universities you've been in the past 20+ years but this just isn't true. Tuition costs have skyrocketed because when you can't ever get away from student debts it turns out there's lots of people willing to lend you unlimited funds. Endowments at the majority of the universities listed here have grown enormously in the past several decades, and have unicorn returns in the past few years. And yet the amount of money going into research and pedagody hasn't really grown at all. Why? it's all going to adminstrative overhead. Just like the article states here, most schools can't even cover the cost of their technology transfer and licensing overhead (more administration) so they're going to squeeze those who can't lawyer up vs. actually provide valuable IP. These are not charities regardless of their taxable status. The pay of top administrators at Harvard is actually determined by the Harvard Corporation, and in addition to incredible benefits and sweet lifetime deals they're all making well over $500K a year in salary. HMC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Harvard is even more ridiculous, with the top 5 bureaucrats all earning between 4.5 and 6 MILLION dollars a year in salary. This has nothing to do with research and teaching.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MattGaiser 5y ago
This comment is why I mentioned the part about charities, where we expect people who are on a mission to do it for peanuts and a shoestring budget or else they are not virtuous. >I'm not sure how involved/aware of US universities you've been in the past 20+ years but this just isn't true. Tuition costs have skyrocketed because when you can't ever get away from student debts it turns out there's lots of people willing to lend you unlimited funds. I didn't say it was going to tuition, just academia. Academia is a lot more than flocks of students in a lecture hall. > And yet the amount of money going into research and pedagody hasn't really grown at all. It has at Harvard. Would surprise me if it hasn't at the other listed schools as well. https://www.statista.com/statistics/697606/rnd-expenditure-harvard-university/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/697606/rnd-expenditure-h... > The pay of top administrators at Harvard is actually determined by the Harvard Corporation, and in addition to incredible benefits and sweet lifetime deals they're all making well over $500K a year in salary. So the leaders of one of the most important academic institutions in the world make the same as a middle career software engineer at a FAANG? If anything, they seem underpaid. > HMC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Harvard is even more ridiculous, with the top 5 bureaucrats all earning between 4.5 and 6 MILLION dollars a year in salary. Because that is what people who manage 40 billion dollars earn. We go back to expecting charity people to earn fractions of their market rate.

varnaud 5y ago

Totally agree with you. Universities need ways to finance themselves. Tech companies are expert at avoiding paying taxes that could be used to pay for the research and this patent trolling could be an attempt to get some of that money back using the broken rules of the current system.