5 ms·

My only complaint about the gravel trend is that at the entry (and mid) level they are often using pretty crappy disc brakes when rim brakes would have been a b

My only complaint about the gravel trend is that at the entry (and mid) level they are often using pretty crappy disc brakes when rim brakes would have been a better choice in 90% of cases. When they are hydraulic, they are a dream to use, but with a cable you really lose the brake feel.

sam_lowry_ 5y ago
Ha! I only figured it out after buying Kona Rove NRB, which is not even an entry-level bike, but it turned out to have disk brakes and extremely fragile paintwork. It served me well, but I am still somewhat cautious when descending since then.
- sirstan 5y ago
  I’m glad to see another Rove owner mention the paint. I swear wiping sweat off the top tube scrapes through the paint.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  Mechanical disk brakes, I mean.
usrusr 5y ago
Rim brakes on roadbikes are awesome, but they are awesome because the calipers don't have to go far around the tire. If you try to build them for wider tires you suffer far more flex and flex means that you can't pull a high lever transmission ratio before running out of lever movement. Remember "brake boosters" on cantilever brakes? Same problem, the requirement to transfer the counterforce far around the tire. I'm a rim brake die-hard, but for anything wider than 28 go disc.
- vecinu 5y ago
  The only caveat is carbon wheels. I hate rim brakes on carbon wheels,they legitimately suck and disc is way better for that application. I actually just sold my carbon wheels and downgraded back to aluminium until I buy a disc bike for the long term.
  - matsemann 5y ago
    Rim breaking on deep dish tempo wheels sounds horrifying.
    - usrusr 5y ago
      They are certainly not the kind of wheels you'd want to use on steep roads with unpredictable weather (e.g. because the trip was planned months in advance and the bike), anybody into that kind of toy usually keeps a set of low section wheels for those occasions (or bike/bikes, if the looks just don't match). Disc brake doesn't change that by the way, because crosswinds can be brutal in the mountains.
      - vecinu 5y ago
        Discs solve my issue because 40mm deep is enough to not suffer from terrible crosswinds, if the wheels are made well. The worst problem is after a few minutes of constant breaking, which you have to do if you're descending a mountain carefully and care for your life, the rim brakes on carbon start to squeal and you lose a lot of braking power. You also used to risk delamination but that isn't that big of an issue on the newer wheels.
- sliken 5y ago
  I'd had just about every cable actuated brakes. Old school cantilevers, various flavors, u-brakes, v-brakes, cable-discs etc. etc. etc. Didn't realize what I was missing till I tried a nice set of hydraulic discs, I'll never go back.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    That list is looking suspiciously void of brakes that would have trouble fitting a 28 mm tire. Yes, disc brakes can be very good, but the gap is much smaller than must people would expect.
    - sliken 5y ago
      Heh, I've had my fair share that would hit the limit in the 25-28mm. In particular the shimano SLR/dual action/dual lever or whatever they are called. I don't agree with the "gap is much smaller than people would expect". Have you tried a decent hydraulic brake? I raced on and off road, was a bike messenger, designed and built (from tubes) a mtb frame, and bike commuted nearly every workday of my life. Disc brakes have significant advantages over any rim brake. Don't knock them till you try them, I was dubious myself.
      - usrusr 5y ago
        Heh, I don't doubt that they are powerful and I sure won't bend over backwards to still get rim brakes next time I want/need a bike, but the "want" isn't exactly strengthened by the switch. And yes, even aluminium wheels aren't really a joy decelerating in the rain (and yes, I've been to that group ride where one guy could show off his nice new aero carbon toy while my nice new aero carbon toy had to stay at home because for a dozen hours of mostly rain as a rim rider your choice will definitely fall on the one with the aluminium wheels. I guess I just can't warm up to the idea of front wheels with twentysomething spokes. It's confusing enough already that carbon front wheels (for rim) almost universally come with 18 instead of 16, what's up with that?
        sliken 5y ago
jmilloy 5y ago
Indeed! In the same series: Myth: disc brakes work better than rim brakes[0]. The rim is the rotor of a bit disc brake rotor that cools better and doesn't add any weight. But the wider tires make disc brakes a necessary choice. [0] https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/ https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-bet...
- analog31 5y ago
  While I don't dispute this, and I have both kinds of bikes, when I talk to "casual" cyclists who have tried disc brakes, they almost unanimously describe the difference as being like night and day. Perhaps the issue is that they are comparing new disc brakes on good bikes, to old crappy neglected rim brakes on cheap bikes. Still, the difference in popularity is unmistakable. Myself, I'm not getting rid of my rim brake bikes any time soon, but it's interesting to observe how different people experience cycling.
  - jmilloy 5y ago
    Yeah, I guess component quality matters, the condiditions matter, rider style and goals matter. It seems like there are plenty of reasons to prefer disc brakes (especially hydraulic), but plenty of others to prefer rim brakes, depending on all of these factors.
  - kohlerm 5y ago
    For pure road bikes rim brakes are ok IMHO only under certain conditions.e.g. no carbon rims and not much dirt and try conditions. These are not the conditions you will find off-road. Also the difference in wet conditions is IMHo still night and day.
    - sliken 5y ago
      Heh, have you ridden on road? I find it at least as dirty as offroad. If anything more grit in the winter, any moisture and everything (bike, shoes, legs, socks, etc). Roads are far from clean, and if anything the debris is more abrasive than you'll find off road. I'd rather have normal dirt than tire and disc dust you'll find on the road.
lmm 5y ago
Cable-pull disc brakes are still a huge improvement over rim brakes in the ways that matter, especially in the wet.
- sliken 5y ago
  Depends. Many make pretty ugly compromises. Poor pads, not much leverage, and even being single sided which often drags and requires the disc to bend for good braking. So cable-pull disc vs rim brakes is less clear, more susceptible to case by case differences. However hydraulic discs are always (AFAIK), double sided, and almost always better than even the highest end rim brakes. Not to mention who wants to destroy their nice rims by dragging brakes on them, leading to relatively short lives as the rim walls get ever thinner, right up till they start cracking. I'd rather replace a disc than a rim after 5-10k miles.
pharmakom 5y ago
Rim brakes cannot fit around a wide tyre. Mechanical disc brakes with good pads (this is key, swap them out if necessary) are much more powerful than road rim brakes.
unethical_ban 5y ago
Yeah, my gravel bike was $1000 new three years ago, and comes with "Spyre 2.0" cable disc brakes. Hydraulic brakes feel 1000% better, but I'd still rather have disc than rim. And mine are double caliper. One thing I love about my brakes is having a second set of brake levers inline on the top of the bar - I believe the Shimano GX (gravel) series has that now for hydraulic. If I ever have to buy another gravel bike, it will have this feature.

sam_lowry_ 5y ago

Ha! I only figured it out after buying Kona Rove NRB, which is not even an entry-level bike, but it turned out to have disk brakes and extremely fragile paintwork. It served me well, but I am still somewhat cautious when descending since then.

sirstan 5y ago
I’m glad to see another Rove owner mention the paint. I swear wiping sweat off the top tube scrapes through the paint.
sam_lowry_ 5y ago
Mechanical disk brakes, I mean.

usrusr 5y ago

Rim brakes on roadbikes are awesome, but they are awesome because the calipers don't have to go far around the tire. If you try to build them for wider tires you suffer far more flex and flex means that you can't pull a high lever transmission ratio before running out of lever movement. Remember "brake boosters" on cantilever brakes? Same problem, the requirement to transfer the counterforce far around the tire. I'm a rim brake die-hard, but for anything wider than 28 go disc.

vecinu 5y ago
The only caveat is carbon wheels. I hate rim brakes on carbon wheels,they legitimately suck and disc is way better for that application. I actually just sold my carbon wheels and downgraded back to aluminium until I buy a disc bike for the long term.
- matsemann 5y ago
  Rim breaking on deep dish tempo wheels sounds horrifying.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    They are certainly not the kind of wheels you'd want to use on steep roads with unpredictable weather (e.g. because the trip was planned months in advance and the bike), anybody into that kind of toy usually keeps a set of low section wheels for those occasions (or bike/bikes, if the looks just don't match). Disc brake doesn't change that by the way, because crosswinds can be brutal in the mountains.
    - vecinu 5y ago
      Discs solve my issue because 40mm deep is enough to not suffer from terrible crosswinds, if the wheels are made well. The worst problem is after a few minutes of constant breaking, which you have to do if you're descending a mountain carefully and care for your life, the rim brakes on carbon start to squeal and you lose a lot of braking power. You also used to risk delamination but that isn't that big of an issue on the newer wheels.
sliken 5y ago
I'd had just about every cable actuated brakes. Old school cantilevers, various flavors, u-brakes, v-brakes, cable-discs etc. etc. etc. Didn't realize what I was missing till I tried a nice set of hydraulic discs, I'll never go back.
- usrusr 5y ago
  That list is looking suspiciously void of brakes that would have trouble fitting a 28 mm tire. Yes, disc brakes can be very good, but the gap is much smaller than must people would expect.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Heh, I've had my fair share that would hit the limit in the 25-28mm. In particular the shimano SLR/dual action/dual lever or whatever they are called. I don't agree with the "gap is much smaller than people would expect". Have you tried a decent hydraulic brake? I raced on and off road, was a bike messenger, designed and built (from tubes) a mtb frame, and bike commuted nearly every workday of my life. Disc brakes have significant advantages over any rim brake. Don't knock them till you try them, I was dubious myself.
    - usrusr 5y ago
      Heh, I don't doubt that they are powerful and I sure won't bend over backwards to still get rim brakes next time I want/need a bike, but the "want" isn't exactly strengthened by the switch. And yes, even aluminium wheels aren't really a joy decelerating in the rain (and yes, I've been to that group ride where one guy could show off his nice new aero carbon toy while my nice new aero carbon toy had to stay at home because for a dozen hours of mostly rain as a rim rider your choice will definitely fall on the one with the aluminium wheels. I guess I just can't warm up to the idea of front wheels with twentysomething spokes. It's confusing enough already that carbon front wheels (for rim) almost universally come with 18 instead of 16, what's up with that?
      - sliken 5y ago

jmilloy 5y ago

Indeed! In the same series: Myth: disc brakes work better than rim brakes[0]. The rim is the rotor of a bit disc brake rotor that cools better and doesn't add any weight. But the wider tires make disc brakes a necessary choice. [0] https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-better-than-rim-brakes/ https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-bet...

analog31 5y ago
While I don't dispute this, and I have both kinds of bikes, when I talk to "casual" cyclists who have tried disc brakes, they almost unanimously describe the difference as being like night and day. Perhaps the issue is that they are comparing new disc brakes on good bikes, to old crappy neglected rim brakes on cheap bikes. Still, the difference in popularity is unmistakable. Myself, I'm not getting rid of my rim brake bikes any time soon, but it's interesting to observe how different people experience cycling.
- jmilloy 5y ago
  Yeah, I guess component quality matters, the condiditions matter, rider style and goals matter. It seems like there are plenty of reasons to prefer disc brakes (especially hydraulic), but plenty of others to prefer rim brakes, depending on all of these factors.
- kohlerm 5y ago
  For pure road bikes rim brakes are ok IMHO only under certain conditions.e.g. no carbon rims and not much dirt and try conditions. These are not the conditions you will find off-road. Also the difference in wet conditions is IMHo still night and day.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Heh, have you ridden on road? I find it at least as dirty as offroad. If anything more grit in the winter, any moisture and everything (bike, shoes, legs, socks, etc). Roads are far from clean, and if anything the debris is more abrasive than you'll find off road. I'd rather have normal dirt than tire and disc dust you'll find on the road.

lmm 5y ago

Cable-pull disc brakes are still a huge improvement over rim brakes in the ways that matter, especially in the wet.

sliken 5y ago
Depends. Many make pretty ugly compromises. Poor pads, not much leverage, and even being single sided which often drags and requires the disc to bend for good braking. So cable-pull disc vs rim brakes is less clear, more susceptible to case by case differences. However hydraulic discs are always (AFAIK), double sided, and almost always better than even the highest end rim brakes. Not to mention who wants to destroy their nice rims by dragging brakes on them, leading to relatively short lives as the rim walls get ever thinner, right up till they start cracking. I'd rather replace a disc than a rim after 5-10k miles.

pharmakom 5y ago

Rim brakes cannot fit around a wide tyre. Mechanical disc brakes with good pads (this is key, swap them out if necessary) are much more powerful than road rim brakes.

unethical_ban 5y ago

Yeah, my gravel bike was $1000 new three years ago, and comes with "Spyre 2.0" cable disc brakes. Hydraulic brakes feel 1000% better, but I'd still rather have disc than rim. And mine are double caliper. One thing I love about my brakes is having a second set of brake levers inline on the top of the bar - I believe the Shimano GX (gravel) series has that now for hydraulic. If I ever have to buy another gravel bike, it will have this feature.