3 ms·

sure not a problem. Parse through this document : https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/0e/5e/e0/eb08a31c44827a/US6974110.pdf https://patentimages.storage

by egfx 5y ago

sure not a problem. Parse through this document : https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/0e/5e/e0/eb08a31c44827a/US6974110.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/0e/5e/e0/eb08a31...

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Interesting. Granted in December 2005. So in the intervening 15 1/2 years, has someone shown a working device? Can you point me to documentation of that?
- egfx 5y ago
  Umm I think you just answered your own question.
jodrellblank 5y ago
Ah, Biefeld-Brown effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld–Brown_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld–Brown_effect
- egfx 5y ago
  Yes. What about it? It’s interesting isn’t it?
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    You started off talking about how a supercooled electromagnet sounds like a theorised UFO operating mechanism which involves electrogravitics. When pushed, you suggested rotation was involved. When pushed again, you linked to a patent which presumably was related to your statements, but instead it describes an atmospheric electricity harvesting pyramid. It insists the device must be pyramid shaped and not boxy, and that the pyramid must be big - 150m high and with a 40,000 square metre base. The shape is important for the described effect to happen, and the size is important to have enough voltage difference between base and peak. NB. this thing is HUGE, the base is the area of a soccer pitch, and the height is more than 3x higher than the Hindenburg, the biggest flying machine ever built. [Aside, it's claimed that the pyramid will have a 30kV potential difference between base and peak; how come I don't get electrocuted when I stand up if the 200V/meter potential gradient near the surface of the Earth claim is correct? How come we don't get this power generation at all from 600m high asymmetric skyscrapers with steel superstructures?]. This pyramid will harvest atmospheric / thunderstorm electricity and be a power supply for civilization. The patent then moves on to describing a vehicle with a spehrical capacitor small enough to go in a vehicle and a rod sticking out the top which must be positively charged, with no explanation where the pyramid or the massive size requirements went, or how or why the capacitor will do anything of any interest. Is it really suggesting "put a rod in the air and electricity will flow"? Because a) yes that happens, they're called aerials and they put out small amounts of electric signals and they don't take off, and b) wouldn't that happen with lightning conductors on buildings, and they be used as power supplies?. Still, put that aside and see how the patent describes the mechanism of operation: "When all capacitor plates are charged, a pressure differential is induced and above the craft the pressure will be higher than at the bottom of the craft. This pressure differential is unstable and progresses towards an equilibrium. It will propel the craft forward in order to eliminate the pressure gradient." (Like a wing, air will move, faster moving air is lower pressure, slower moving air is higher pressure, the air pressure dfferential pushes the craft, right?). That is, the patent you linked to to explain how UFOs might be powered by a device like a supercooled electromagnet with an antigravity effect using electrogravitics and involving rotation, describes a thing which doesn't involve supercooling, or electromagnets, or electrogravitics, or antigravity, or rotation(?!). There exists a MagnetoHydroDynamic drive, it's able to push seawater using only electricity and no other moving parts, and there is a ship called Yamato 1 built to experiment with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive that's cool. There exists a small airplane built by MIT which uses high voltage wires and no moving parts to generate an ionic wind to lift itself: https://news.mit.edu/2018/first-ionic-wind-plane-no-moving-parts-1121 https://news.mit.edu/2018/first-ionic-wind-plane-no-moving-p... that's cool. Biefeld-Brown lifters are interesting. Connection to UFOs, antigravity, or the experiment with the nail described in this thread, still not apparent.
    - egfx 5y ago
      > Connection to UFOs, antigravity, or the experiment with the nail described in this thread, still not apparent. And yet much of it remains unapparent including how the effect you described “air flowing over a wing” makes a jet stay in the air: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-one-can-explain-why-planes-stay-in-the-air/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-one-can-explai... The point is there is only so much data open source and it is interesting to extrapolate what electromagnetism means to gravity because there might be a connection there. Whether it’s a school project to make a nail rocket into space or making a lifter with no moving parts. Putting it out to a thread dealing with electrical magnetic work is the right idea to get us thinking in this direction to discuss and discover what might be possible in these emerging areas.
      - jodrellblank 5y ago
        > "what electromagnetism means to gravity because there might be a connection there" Skim-read this: https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/privileging-the-hypothesis https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/privileging-the-hypothesis and then what evidence are you using that there "might there be a connection there"? Your "air flowing over a wing" link at least has a hundred years and many millions of flying hours showing that wings must work in some way related to air.
        egfx 5y ago
        So let’s stop contemplating how planes really stay up in the air because it probably has something to do with wind. And let’s not even attempt to think about what electromagnetism means to gravity. As there is insufficient public evidence so it’s not even worth hypothesizing about. I’m sorry but with that mindset we as a species would never make any new discoveries.
        jodrellblank 5y ago
        ???? No. Not at all. Aircraft exist, we can fly in them, we can stick their wings into a wind tunnel and blow smoke over them and see how it moves. Let's keep contemplating better models of how it moves until we are happy we understand them as much as we want to. Let's stop saying "if UFOs are really alien space ships then it would be totally awesome if they flew by electromagnetic gravity manipulation, therefore that probably exists". Like, if you want to build magnetic coils and experiment to see if they affect gravity, because it would be cool if they did, knock yourself out. If you're going to post "do your research like I did ;) ;)" and then can't turn up a single link with anything relating to your claims in several days and multiple comments, don't do that. ---- > "As there is insufficient public evidence so it’s not even worth hypothesizing about" Yes, exactly, like all other woo from homeopathy to Scientology to phrenology to magnetic therapy to Dr Feelgood's Cure-All, the reason they aren't worth it is because there isn't good evidence that they are worth it. Hypothesizing based on secret evidence which you don't have, seems even sillier. And worse, there doesn't seem to be much reason to think electricity should interact with gravity. Earth has 5 trillion trillion tons of matter, and curves spacetime 400,000km out beyond the moon. What do photons or electrons have to do with that? > "I’m sorry but with that mindset we as a species would never make any new discoveries." I suggest the entire history of Western science is that - sticking to evidence and repeatable demonstrable effects, and working out what's happening.

by egfx 5y ago

sure not a problem. Parse through this document : https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/0e/5e/e0/eb08a31c44827a/US6974110.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/0e/5e/e0/eb08a31...

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

Interesting. Granted in December 2005. So in the intervening 15 1/2 years, has someone shown a working device? Can you point me to documentation of that?

egfx 5y ago
Umm I think you just answered your own question.

jodrellblank 5y ago

Ah, Biefeld-Brown effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld–Brown_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld–Brown_effect

egfx 5y ago
Yes. What about it? It’s interesting isn’t it?
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  You started off talking about how a supercooled electromagnet sounds like a theorised UFO operating mechanism which involves electrogravitics. When pushed, you suggested rotation was involved. When pushed again, you linked to a patent which presumably was related to your statements, but instead it describes an atmospheric electricity harvesting pyramid. It insists the device must be pyramid shaped and not boxy, and that the pyramid must be big - 150m high and with a 40,000 square metre base. The shape is important for the described effect to happen, and the size is important to have enough voltage difference between base and peak. NB. this thing is HUGE, the base is the area of a soccer pitch, and the height is more than 3x higher than the Hindenburg, the biggest flying machine ever built. [Aside, it's claimed that the pyramid will have a 30kV potential difference between base and peak; how come I don't get electrocuted when I stand up if the 200V/meter potential gradient near the surface of the Earth claim is correct? How come we don't get this power generation at all from 600m high asymmetric skyscrapers with steel superstructures?]. This pyramid will harvest atmospheric / thunderstorm electricity and be a power supply for civilization. The patent then moves on to describing a vehicle with a spehrical capacitor small enough to go in a vehicle and a rod sticking out the top which must be positively charged, with no explanation where the pyramid or the massive size requirements went, or how or why the capacitor will do anything of any interest. Is it really suggesting "put a rod in the air and electricity will flow"? Because a) yes that happens, they're called aerials and they put out small amounts of electric signals and they don't take off, and b) wouldn't that happen with lightning conductors on buildings, and they be used as power supplies?. Still, put that aside and see how the patent describes the mechanism of operation: "When all capacitor plates are charged, a pressure differential is induced and above the craft the pressure will be higher than at the bottom of the craft. This pressure differential is unstable and progresses towards an equilibrium. It will propel the craft forward in order to eliminate the pressure gradient." (Like a wing, air will move, faster moving air is lower pressure, slower moving air is higher pressure, the air pressure dfferential pushes the craft, right?). That is, the patent you linked to to explain how UFOs might be powered by a device like a supercooled electromagnet with an antigravity effect using electrogravitics and involving rotation, describes a thing which doesn't involve supercooling, or electromagnets, or electrogravitics, or antigravity, or rotation(?!). There exists a MagnetoHydroDynamic drive, it's able to push seawater using only electricity and no other moving parts, and there is a ship called Yamato 1 built to experiment with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive that's cool. There exists a small airplane built by MIT which uses high voltage wires and no moving parts to generate an ionic wind to lift itself: https://news.mit.edu/2018/first-ionic-wind-plane-no-moving-parts-1121 https://news.mit.edu/2018/first-ionic-wind-plane-no-moving-p... that's cool. Biefeld-Brown lifters are interesting. Connection to UFOs, antigravity, or the experiment with the nail described in this thread, still not apparent.
  - egfx 5y ago
    > Connection to UFOs, antigravity, or the experiment with the nail described in this thread, still not apparent. And yet much of it remains unapparent including how the effect you described “air flowing over a wing” makes a jet stay in the air: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-one-can-explain-why-planes-stay-in-the-air/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-one-can-explai... The point is there is only so much data open source and it is interesting to extrapolate what electromagnetism means to gravity because there might be a connection there. Whether it’s a school project to make a nail rocket into space or making a lifter with no moving parts. Putting it out to a thread dealing with electrical magnetic work is the right idea to get us thinking in this direction to discuss and discover what might be possible in these emerging areas.
    - jodrellblank 5y ago
      > "what electromagnetism means to gravity because there might be a connection there" Skim-read this: https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/privileging-the-hypothesis https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/privileging-the-hypothesis and then what evidence are you using that there "might there be a connection there"? Your "air flowing over a wing" link at least has a hundred years and many millions of flying hours showing that wings must work in some way related to air.
      - egfx 5y ago
        So let’s stop contemplating how planes really stay up in the air because it probably has something to do with wind. And let’s not even attempt to think about what electromagnetism means to gravity. As there is insufficient public evidence so it’s not even worth hypothesizing about. I’m sorry but with that mindset we as a species would never make any new discoveries.
        jodrellblank 5y ago
        ???? No. Not at all. Aircraft exist, we can fly in them, we can stick their wings into a wind tunnel and blow smoke over them and see how it moves. Let's keep contemplating better models of how it moves until we are happy we understand them as much as we want to. Let's stop saying "if UFOs are really alien space ships then it would be totally awesome if they flew by electromagnetic gravity manipulation, therefore that probably exists". Like, if you want to build magnetic coils and experiment to see if they affect gravity, because it would be cool if they did, knock yourself out. If you're going to post "do your research like I did ;) ;)" and then can't turn up a single link with anything relating to your claims in several days and multiple comments, don't do that. ---- > "As there is insufficient public evidence so it’s not even worth hypothesizing about" Yes, exactly, like all other woo from homeopathy to Scientology to phrenology to magnetic therapy to Dr Feelgood's Cure-All, the reason they aren't worth it is because there isn't good evidence that they are worth it. Hypothesizing based on secret evidence which you don't have, seems even sillier. And worse, there doesn't seem to be much reason to think electricity should interact with gravity. Earth has 5 trillion trillion tons of matter, and curves spacetime 400,000km out beyond the moon. What do photons or electrons have to do with that? > "I’m sorry but with that mindset we as a species would never make any new discoveries." I suggest the entire history of Western science is that - sticking to evidence and repeatable demonstrable effects, and working out what's happening.