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Per advice from Daniel from HN (thank you!), I have reposted this Ask HN I made earlier about immutability. [1] I was thinking the other day about my days work

Per advice from Daniel from HN (thank you!), I have reposted this Ask HN I made earlier about immutability. [1] I was thinking the other day about my days working with Ruby On Rails and how the strings are mutable in Ruby and the freeze method. My mind wandered about that, the several freeze packages that exist (even the frozendict [2] package) that make frozen classes of objects. I haven't worked professionally with Haskell or Erlang, but some of their functional capabilities are nice and have ejerced a big influence in my work with Ruby on Rails and Python. Specially the ideas of having immutable objects and keeping updates at minimum. I thought on doing a freeze package that could make frozen objects recursively in Python. The idea is to make easier to share objects between threads without having to worry about updates inside threads. However, I'm not sure that this package is useful at all. Maybe is because Python is not a well-suited language for this? Maybe is because my lack of knowledge about functional programming? Maybe is because it doesn't make sense to "freeze" objects? Some ideas I have in the back of my mind for this package are: - Some kind of basic datastore-server where data is immutable (threaded server?). - Storing all updates some kind of super-object by storing all history as immutable objects. What are some sources to learn about immutability on programing languages? How could you use a freeze package in Python or other languages? Would it be useful to share information between threads? Any advice/idea/feeback/criticism or comment on this matter is appreciated. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503947 [2] https://pypi.org/project/frozendict/ https://pypi.org/project/frozendict/

macintux 5y ago
Speaking as someone who Friday had to fix an embarrassing bug in my Python code because lists aren’t immutable when passed to another function, I like the way you think. I will say, however, that what I want from Python isn’t actually “frozen” data structures but cloned ones (or, like some/most FP languages, structures with nested values that are only cloned when necessary). Vals, not vars.
- BerislavLopac 5y ago
  > lists aren’t immutable when passed to another function Well, lists are never immutable in Python; you want to use tuples for that.
  - macintux 5y ago
    True, what I really want is referential transparency, not immutability per se. I’ve only used tuples in Python as a small data structure, will have to experiment with using them as a list substitute, thanks.
    - BerislavLopac 5y ago
      Just keep in mind that a tuple's elements can still be mutable, so it's not a "frozen" data structure throughout.
- diegojromero 5y ago
  Interesting idea, instead of a deep clone, would it be something similar to the copy-on-modify pattern?
  - macintux 5y ago
    Copy on modify would work, certainly. The term I was forgetting when I wrote that is “persistent” data structures, but I’m not sure whether it’s practical to implement persistent structures in a non-functional language like Python. https://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1 https://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector...
4ec0755f5522 5y ago
I use attrs for this. The objects are not truly immutable in the sense that you can modify then if you are really determined to but typical assignment of a new value to a attrs defined field (where frozen=True) will raise an error. https://www.attrs.org/en/stable/examples.html#immutability https://www.attrs.org/en/stable/examples.html#immutability

macintux 5y ago

Speaking as someone who Friday had to fix an embarrassing bug in my Python code because lists aren’t immutable when passed to another function, I like the way you think. I will say, however, that what I want from Python isn’t actually “frozen” data structures but cloned ones (or, like some/most FP languages, structures with nested values that are only cloned when necessary). Vals, not vars.

BerislavLopac 5y ago
> lists aren’t immutable when passed to another function Well, lists are never immutable in Python; you want to use tuples for that.
- macintux 5y ago
  True, what I really want is referential transparency, not immutability per se. I’ve only used tuples in Python as a small data structure, will have to experiment with using them as a list substitute, thanks.
  - BerislavLopac 5y ago
    Just keep in mind that a tuple's elements can still be mutable, so it's not a "frozen" data structure throughout.
diegojromero 5y ago
Interesting idea, instead of a deep clone, would it be something similar to the copy-on-modify pattern?
- macintux 5y ago
  Copy on modify would work, certainly. The term I was forgetting when I wrote that is “persistent” data structures, but I’m not sure whether it’s practical to implement persistent structures in a non-functional language like Python. https://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1 https://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector...

4ec0755f5522 5y ago

I use attrs for this. The objects are not truly immutable in the sense that you can modify then if you are really determined to but typical assignment of a new value to a attrs defined field (where frozen=True) will raise an error. https://www.attrs.org/en/stable/examples.html#immutability https://www.attrs.org/en/stable/examples.html#immutability