4 ms·

This may seem coldly logical but in the absence of my own researched opinions, I am evaluating the merit of the opinion about these interviews based on their or

This may seem coldly logical but in the absence of my own researched opinions, I am evaluating the merit of the opinion about these interviews based on their origin: You have - companies that settled on this process, who have been able to attract top tallent that has cleared this bar. You have - employees of these companies that were able to clear the interview bar. And then you have - people who don't work for these companies, proclaim to have no interest/ability to clear the bar, but claim to have a valid view into where the bar should be. In the absence of other data it doesn't seem like the last group is likely to be objectively right

pianoben 5y ago
Personally I suck at leetcode questions, but nevertheless have snuck in to some of these so-called "top-tier" companies. And let me tell you! These questions have fuck-all to do with the actual work the happens there. Sure, you can usually find someone to tell you how much rainwater accumulates into a random bar chart, but I see as much brain-dead code at the top as anywhere else. As much great code, too, FWIW. Everywhere, the key skills that make for a successful IC are the same, and they definitely don't require implementing splay trees or skip lists from scratch and without references. 99% of the time it's shuffling bits around and using hash maps. Honestly the people I work with who advocate the hardest for leetcode are the ones who had to grind hard and, evidently, want others to suffer too. As if a sane process would mean their own suffering was in vain.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  I am not sure that's the whole picture. I don't care about leetcode type problems but if I was applying for a job where they were a barrier to entry, I'd go figure out what it takes to master them. The bar may simply be "sober enough to understand what it takes to succeed at this task", "committed enough to prepare" and "smart enough to solve them" These attributes correlate strongly with success, I'd imagine.
  - xemdetia 5y ago
    I disagree with this point because most interviewers and interviewees are novices, and giving them a task that gives straight pass/fail feedback optimizes for the wrong solution for people that can solve puzzles but not think about systems well. I've had many candidates be able to zip through puzzles but when asked relevant questions about building an understanding systems they wash out immediately. Most systems are more than one code file and I don't need to waste my hiring expenses teaching them how to think about systems from near scratch and having to heavy hand review them to write good code. I have generally found the only leetcode grind types to be less self sufficient and not really a signifier to success. In my experience the leetcode grind type can't even expand on their own answers to answer any useful questions like 'where and why would you use what you just made' and 'what technologies have you used that might utilize this technique' ends up with crickets. Right now my interview has a wash out coding exercise that is beginner oriented to get the resume liars but other than that it's all systems.
    - dmoy 5y ago
      > I disagree with this point because most interviewers ... are novices Having sat on hiring committees, that's a fair summary. Most people are not very good at interviewing, because it's a weird skill, and nobody actually teaches you how to do it well. There's interview training, but it's incredibly short, and seems like half of it is about legal policy. There's ostensibly shadow interviews, but that tends to be luck of the draw on who your shadower is; most won't put in the requisite time to help coach you in conducting better interviews. I think big companies like to pretend that leetcode interviewing scales well, without actually doing the time necessary to make it scale well. > Right now my interview has a wash out coding exercise that is beginner oriented to get the resume liars but other than that it's all systems. This is 100% what I've gravitated to. The longer I've interviewed people, the easier and easier the actual coding parts of my questions have become.
  - pianoben 5y ago
    That may be so, but part of my gripe with leetcode is that people tend to grind for many months to "get in shape" for job interviews. That's just not reasonable to expect of anyone, let alone those with families or other responsibilities. It's not like there aren't benefits to this process. Once you've buffed up, you're prepared for most major tech interviews. Common formats have their advantages. That said, this format is just too expensive, and has poor predictive power.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Your argument is a tautology, it doesnt examine any merits of the system, and is no different from: "You have - companies that settled on using skin colour, who have been able to attract top tallent that has cleared this bar." Or: "World's best banks and world's best traders have invested in subprime mortgages, they couldn't all be wrong?"
- xyzelement 5y ago
  // is no different from Using skin color for hiring is illegal and immoral and the government does not allow it. Issuing sub primes is bad for business and blew up pretty quickly. If asking programmers programming questions is "no different" from the above, which is it: illegal or bad for business?
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Subprime mortgages were a thing for longer than leetcode was. If they were bad for business, why was it a common practice for so long? Does a business have no clue what's bad for business? Or is it just self destructive? If "it's an established practice" argument also enconoasses things that are bad for business, and things that are immoral and illegal, maybe it's not a strong argument?

pianoben 5y ago

Personally I suck at leetcode questions, but nevertheless have snuck in to some of these so-called "top-tier" companies. And let me tell you! These questions have fuck-all to do with the actual work the happens there. Sure, you can usually find someone to tell you how much rainwater accumulates into a random bar chart, but I see as much brain-dead code at the top as anywhere else. As much great code, too, FWIW. Everywhere, the key skills that make for a successful IC are the same, and they definitely don't require implementing splay trees or skip lists from scratch and without references. 99% of the time it's shuffling bits around and using hash maps. Honestly the people I work with who advocate the hardest for leetcode are the ones who had to grind hard and, evidently, want others to suffer too. As if a sane process would mean their own suffering was in vain.

xyzelement 5y ago
I am not sure that's the whole picture. I don't care about leetcode type problems but if I was applying for a job where they were a barrier to entry, I'd go figure out what it takes to master them. The bar may simply be "sober enough to understand what it takes to succeed at this task", "committed enough to prepare" and "smart enough to solve them" These attributes correlate strongly with success, I'd imagine.
- xemdetia 5y ago
  I disagree with this point because most interviewers and interviewees are novices, and giving them a task that gives straight pass/fail feedback optimizes for the wrong solution for people that can solve puzzles but not think about systems well. I've had many candidates be able to zip through puzzles but when asked relevant questions about building an understanding systems they wash out immediately. Most systems are more than one code file and I don't need to waste my hiring expenses teaching them how to think about systems from near scratch and having to heavy hand review them to write good code. I have generally found the only leetcode grind types to be less self sufficient and not really a signifier to success. In my experience the leetcode grind type can't even expand on their own answers to answer any useful questions like 'where and why would you use what you just made' and 'what technologies have you used that might utilize this technique' ends up with crickets. Right now my interview has a wash out coding exercise that is beginner oriented to get the resume liars but other than that it's all systems.
  - dmoy 5y ago
    > I disagree with this point because most interviewers ... are novices Having sat on hiring committees, that's a fair summary. Most people are not very good at interviewing, because it's a weird skill, and nobody actually teaches you how to do it well. There's interview training, but it's incredibly short, and seems like half of it is about legal policy. There's ostensibly shadow interviews, but that tends to be luck of the draw on who your shadower is; most won't put in the requisite time to help coach you in conducting better interviews. I think big companies like to pretend that leetcode interviewing scales well, without actually doing the time necessary to make it scale well. > Right now my interview has a wash out coding exercise that is beginner oriented to get the resume liars but other than that it's all systems. This is 100% what I've gravitated to. The longer I've interviewed people, the easier and easier the actual coding parts of my questions have become.
- pianoben 5y ago
  That may be so, but part of my gripe with leetcode is that people tend to grind for many months to "get in shape" for job interviews. That's just not reasonable to expect of anyone, let alone those with families or other responsibilities. It's not like there aren't benefits to this process. Once you've buffed up, you're prepared for most major tech interviews. Common formats have their advantages. That said, this format is just too expensive, and has poor predictive power.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

Your argument is a tautology, it doesnt examine any merits of the system, and is no different from: "You have - companies that settled on using skin colour, who have been able to attract top tallent that has cleared this bar." Or: "World's best banks and world's best traders have invested in subprime mortgages, they couldn't all be wrong?"

xyzelement 5y ago
// is no different from Using skin color for hiring is illegal and immoral and the government does not allow it. Issuing sub primes is bad for business and blew up pretty quickly. If asking programmers programming questions is "no different" from the above, which is it: illegal or bad for business?
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Subprime mortgages were a thing for longer than leetcode was. If they were bad for business, why was it a common practice for so long? Does a business have no clue what's bad for business? Or is it just self destructive? If "it's an established practice" argument also enconoasses things that are bad for business, and things that are immoral and illegal, maybe it's not a strong argument?