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I find this funny - Dogecoin has as much value as Bitcoin. It still takes energy (and therefore money) to mine, and the resulting "coin" has value - that being

I find this funny - Dogecoin has as much value as Bitcoin. It still takes energy (and therefore money) to mine, and the resulting "coin" has value - that being how much someone is willing to sell it for, and how much someone is willing to buy for it, driven by factors such as mining cost as well as speculation. The only real difference being the name of the coin. If they're worried about price influence by social media influencers, this is also a problem for other coins. Elon tweets, and the price of BTC varies. It's not just "meme coins" that's susceptible to this. The logic that's been applied here is highly suspect to me.

haskellandchill 5y ago
> Dogecoin has as much value as Bitcoin Correct, and that is zero (or really negative) value. I see crypto as a plague on productive society. People think they can just get rich by investing in currency. It's insane. Value is being destroyed with all the attention wasted in the space. Governments need to step in and protect their citizens from this nonsense.
- marsrover 5y ago
  > Governments need to step in and protect their citizens from this nonsense. Because citizens are being forced against their will to participate right? I don't know about the rest of you but I know I've held a gun to people's heads before and made them buy Bitcoin. Edit: love the downvotes, fuck this place. Go ahead and hell ban me or something.
  - mehlmao 5y ago
    What about encrypting their files, threatening to leak documents with PII, and making them buy Bitcoin?
    - marsrover 5y ago
      Another good tactic.
  - dogecoinbase 5y ago
    Obviously not, rather because of the significant negative externalities that remain unaddressed after over a decade.
    - marsrover 5y ago
      If we want to address significant negative externalities that have remain unaddressed for over a decade maybe we should look into how many people we bomb on a frequent basis. Or healthcare. Or corruption in politics. Or our crumbling society.
      - nielsbot 5y ago
        yes, those are also bad
        marsrover 5y ago
        Thanks your your valuable input.
      - oriki 5y ago
        "Bad thing exists, therefore, really, this isn't that bad of a thing" isn't an argument.
        marsrover 5y ago
        It is when it's a zero sum game.
      - dogecoinbase 5y ago
        Thanks for your input! You have committed a subvariety of the classic tu quoque logical fallacy also sometimes colloquially known as "whataboutism". It is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Would you care to try again, and address the argument rather than deflecting?
        marsrover 5y ago
  - yupper32 5y ago
    This isn't a great argument, regardless of my stance on the issue. We ban and heavily regulate plenty of financial stuff so that people don't get taken advantage of. Payday loan regulations/bans are a good example.
    - marsrover 5y ago
      Just because we do something doesn't mean we should.
      - delecti 5y ago
        That's not an argument in either direction. We do lots of things we could instead not do, many of which we should.
        marsrover 5y ago
        If you think that's not an argument in either direction, I don't know what to tell you.
        delecti 5y ago
        You're implying that some financial regulations are unnecessary, but without saying it or giving reasons why. Yes, I think you have no provided an argument.
        marsrover 5y ago
        Adults should be allowed to make adult decisions. Thats the argument.
        onethought 5y ago
        That’s a poor argument. What about adults that take advantage of other adults? Subprime? Insider trading? Organised crime? They are all adults making decisions… why even have police? How much crime is committed by kids anyway?
  - wsatb 5y ago
    The prices of these coins can and does get manipulated all the time. Real people will get burned, badly. You can't even depend on these exchanges to actually handle high trading volume when there are price crashes. It's honestly a joke that anyone trusts this system as it currently stands. Anyone who seriously believes in a future of cryptocurrency should be calling this crap out instead of brushing everything bad about it under the rug and labeling it as FUD. The problem: very few people actually believe in cryptocurrency, most are looking for a quick buck instead.
    - marsrover 5y ago
      > The prices of these coins can and does get manipulated all the time. This is known. > Real people will get burned, badly. Welcome to the game, there is a learning curve. > You can't even depend on these exchanges to actually handle high trading volume when there are price crashes. If they're centralized, you mean. > It's honestly a joke that anyone trusts this system as it currently stands. It's easy to distrust a system you don't understand. > Anyone who seriously believes in a future of cryptocurrency should be calling this crap out If you interacted with anyone in crypto you'd realize that they do. > The problem: very few people actually believe in cryptocurrency, most are looking for a quick buck instead. Why is that a problem? The ecosystem needs technologist and "market makers" (including individual traders in this) to function.
      - betwixthewires 5y ago
        I just want to say I like cryptocurrency, but there are some real problems with some of your points I just had to point out. > welcome to the game. Is this a game, or something useful, a currency system? If it's a game all your opponents are right. Truth is, some people get burned with every risk that people take, and everyone gets burned by some risk they take at some point, it is why most of us are risk averse. People get burned crossing the street. > If they're centralized Find me a single decentralized exchange that has the liquidity to handle high trading volume. > It's easy to distrust a system that you don't understand You're assuming detractors don't understand. It is self supporting fallacious logic, "if you don't agree with me that's because I know more about it than you" As far as unaddressed points, to talk about crypto getting manipulated and pretend that heavily regulated markets like the housing market or stock market don't get manipulated is hilarious. Every market gets manipulated, but people pretend like the government solves that and cryptocurrency is the only market where this happens. All in all I like cryptocurrency, and I don't like regulation for the most part. Before someone out there decides that this means I don't think murder should be illegal, I do, so no sense going down that line of discussion. But I don't think protecting people from predators is the same as protecting people from themselves, one is within the realm of a justice system and the other is not.
- zenron 5y ago
  Speaking as an US Citizen: Why is it you think the government should be involved in this when they are demonstrably incompetents in keeping our basic Credit Cards and Checking Accounts safe from scammers and fraudulent attacks? Especially not keeping our elderly population safe. They can't even keep public emails safe from a certain Secretary of State. They can't keep a single man in a Prison safe from 'suiciding' while waiting for the court case of the century. They can't even keep the phone companies accountable to the Do Not Call list for spam calls. They cannot keep telco and cable companies from price gauging consumers for internet while at the same time enforcing lock downs that keep people at home- with children- that require internet access and lots of bandwidth. Many states holding the state residents hostage from any sort of options of providers. If the crypto rush is the new gold rush and it is a burgeoning market, why should - or how could, the government save people from their personal decisions. Crypto itself is not fraud. We have laws against fraud if one specific instance is found to be fraudulent. Why should we make new laws to save people from their bad decisions? Honestly, those bad decisions started with the elected officials that aren't held accountable to the public as it is. So we're going to let incompetents govern incompetently for what exists and ask them to govern competently for NEW things? How peculiar.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    So we're going to let incompetents govern incompetently for what exists and ask them to govern competently for NEW things? How peculiar. Believing the government to be incompetent is a self-fulfilling prophecy: - Only the incompetent or apathetic will choose to work for government and take the hit to their personal reputation. - Underfunding leads to underperformance which leads to perceptions of incompetence which leads to underfunding. - True incompetence, corruption, etc. start getting ignored as just "that's how the government is," so nobody tries to fix anything. - Those who have a financial interest in reducing the capabilities of government will "starve the beast" and make it progressively more incompetent. There are many functions of government that, though they could always do better, make the world better than it would be in their absence: fire departments, paramedics, infrastructure management (in areas where this is actually done reasonably well), utilities, financial crimes enforcement, agricultural and pharmaceutical quality enforcement, etc. We're already pretty far down this road of destruction of competence, so I'm not sure how to turn things around, but that doesn't mean we have to keep driving forward into the land of feudalistic anarchocapitalism.
- mdorazio 5y ago
  > People think they can just get rich by investing in currency. It's insane. Here's the problem - replace [currency] with any of many other things and the statement is still valid. You need to explain why crypto specifically deserves more hate than, say, Forex or options trading.
  - spicybright 5y ago
    I'm guessing you as an individual would have no problem trading coins though, right? Even if they firewall the country, all you need is any vpn to make transactions.
  - haskellandchill 5y ago
    It's a false equivalency. Crypto is different than the other things, which are regulated. Crypto exchanges need regulation. That is all.
- tmn 5y ago
  Explain how it's a plague please
  - haskellandchill 5y ago
    I could write an essay and it would not change a soul. Figure it out, or don't. Enjoy your life either way.
    - tmn 5y ago
      I mean this is a uncommon opinion. I'd appreciate a few sentences because I was curious. But whatever, I won't lose sleep. I don't know if you think it's because of the energy waste, or invoking speculative rampage, or something else.. It's the something else I'm more curious about.
      - haskellandchill 5y ago
        I see smart people watching charts like pornography addicts instead of engaging in productive business activities, that is all. I see money that could be invested in the community going into scams like Chainlink.
        tmn 5y ago
        Fair point. I was addicted the chart watching for a few months the 2017 run. I would put this under the speculative rampage.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  A quick check of the price charts demonstrates that millions of people disagree that the value is zero. If you feel strongly about it, you should short Bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend doing so, but if that is your conviction you have the option to put your money where your mouth is.
mym1990 5y ago
Based on my light understanding of crypto related things, I think Bitcoin very obviously has a purpose and a mission while Dogecoin was literally created as a joke and happened to take off...that would be understanding of their “objectives” as referenced in the article.
- kube-system 5y ago
  I personally think dogecoin is dumb, but I also don't think originalism is very useful to judge most creations. Plenty of creations take on a life that is nothing like the originator intended.
  - mym1990 5y ago
    Maybe, but it’s not like Bitcoin had a mission and it’s now completely different, it still pursues a more decentralized world view. In similar light, it’s not like Dogecoin is now any less of a joke than it was when it was created, it’s just speculated upon more.
- lvs 5y ago
  The developers who made the joke are no longer associated with any ongoing development. And just because something is unserious does not mean it lacks value or objectives.
- lawn 5y ago
  A thing doesn't derive it's value or purpose from the intent of their creator, but how it's used going forward. Bitcoin for example was created to be electronic cash, but today most people treat is as a "digital gold" and a store of value, but not as something to be used in regular day-to-day transactions. And Dogecoin was indeed created as a joke, but it doesn't stop it from being used to buy things (3% of all BitPay purchases[1]), and in contrast to Bitcoin the community wants to keep it affordable. So in a way, you can argue that Dogecoin follows Satoshi's vision more than even Bitcoin does. [1]: https://bitpay.com/stats/ https://bitpay.com/stats/
  - 5y ago
wyager 5y ago
Cost is not driven by mining cost. Labor theory of value is tempting but wrong here and anywhere else. You have your causality backwards. Mining cost is driven by value.
imNotTheProb 5y ago
Dogecoin has no cap. It's like Fiat currency. Bitcoin is more similar to Gold in scarcity.
ziml77 5y ago
Does it have as much value? It is designed to constantly inflate while bitcoin is designed to have a hard limit on the number of coins mined.

haskellandchill 5y ago

> Dogecoin has as much value as Bitcoin Correct, and that is zero (or really negative) value. I see crypto as a plague on productive society. People think they can just get rich by investing in currency. It's insane. Value is being destroyed with all the attention wasted in the space. Governments need to step in and protect their citizens from this nonsense.

marsrover 5y ago
> Governments need to step in and protect their citizens from this nonsense. Because citizens are being forced against their will to participate right? I don't know about the rest of you but I know I've held a gun to people's heads before and made them buy Bitcoin. Edit: love the downvotes, fuck this place. Go ahead and hell ban me or something.
- mehlmao 5y ago
  What about encrypting their files, threatening to leak documents with PII, and making them buy Bitcoin?
  - marsrover 5y ago
    Another good tactic.
- dogecoinbase 5y ago
  Obviously not, rather because of the significant negative externalities that remain unaddressed after over a decade.
  - marsrover 5y ago
    If we want to address significant negative externalities that have remain unaddressed for over a decade maybe we should look into how many people we bomb on a frequent basis. Or healthcare. Or corruption in politics. Or our crumbling society.
    - nielsbot 5y ago
      yes, those are also bad
      - marsrover 5y ago
        Thanks your your valuable input.
    - oriki 5y ago
      "Bad thing exists, therefore, really, this isn't that bad of a thing" isn't an argument.
      - marsrover 5y ago
        It is when it's a zero sum game.
    - dogecoinbase 5y ago
      Thanks for your input! You have committed a subvariety of the classic tu quoque logical fallacy also sometimes colloquially known as "whataboutism". It is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Would you care to try again, and address the argument rather than deflecting?
      - marsrover 5y ago
- yupper32 5y ago
  This isn't a great argument, regardless of my stance on the issue. We ban and heavily regulate plenty of financial stuff so that people don't get taken advantage of. Payday loan regulations/bans are a good example.
  - marsrover 5y ago
    Just because we do something doesn't mean we should.
    - delecti 5y ago
      That's not an argument in either direction. We do lots of things we could instead not do, many of which we should.
      - marsrover 5y ago
        If you think that's not an argument in either direction, I don't know what to tell you.
        delecti 5y ago
        You're implying that some financial regulations are unnecessary, but without saying it or giving reasons why. Yes, I think you have no provided an argument.
        marsrover 5y ago
        Adults should be allowed to make adult decisions. Thats the argument.
        onethought 5y ago
        That’s a poor argument. What about adults that take advantage of other adults? Subprime? Insider trading? Organised crime? They are all adults making decisions… why even have police? How much crime is committed by kids anyway?
- wsatb 5y ago
  The prices of these coins can and does get manipulated all the time. Real people will get burned, badly. You can't even depend on these exchanges to actually handle high trading volume when there are price crashes. It's honestly a joke that anyone trusts this system as it currently stands. Anyone who seriously believes in a future of cryptocurrency should be calling this crap out instead of brushing everything bad about it under the rug and labeling it as FUD. The problem: very few people actually believe in cryptocurrency, most are looking for a quick buck instead.
  - marsrover 5y ago
    > The prices of these coins can and does get manipulated all the time. This is known. > Real people will get burned, badly. Welcome to the game, there is a learning curve. > You can't even depend on these exchanges to actually handle high trading volume when there are price crashes. If they're centralized, you mean. > It's honestly a joke that anyone trusts this system as it currently stands. It's easy to distrust a system you don't understand. > Anyone who seriously believes in a future of cryptocurrency should be calling this crap out If you interacted with anyone in crypto you'd realize that they do. > The problem: very few people actually believe in cryptocurrency, most are looking for a quick buck instead. Why is that a problem? The ecosystem needs technologist and "market makers" (including individual traders in this) to function.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      I just want to say I like cryptocurrency, but there are some real problems with some of your points I just had to point out. > welcome to the game. Is this a game, or something useful, a currency system? If it's a game all your opponents are right. Truth is, some people get burned with every risk that people take, and everyone gets burned by some risk they take at some point, it is why most of us are risk averse. People get burned crossing the street. > If they're centralized Find me a single decentralized exchange that has the liquidity to handle high trading volume. > It's easy to distrust a system that you don't understand You're assuming detractors don't understand. It is self supporting fallacious logic, "if you don't agree with me that's because I know more about it than you" As far as unaddressed points, to talk about crypto getting manipulated and pretend that heavily regulated markets like the housing market or stock market don't get manipulated is hilarious. Every market gets manipulated, but people pretend like the government solves that and cryptocurrency is the only market where this happens. All in all I like cryptocurrency, and I don't like regulation for the most part. Before someone out there decides that this means I don't think murder should be illegal, I do, so no sense going down that line of discussion. But I don't think protecting people from predators is the same as protecting people from themselves, one is within the realm of a justice system and the other is not.
zenron 5y ago
Speaking as an US Citizen: Why is it you think the government should be involved in this when they are demonstrably incompetents in keeping our basic Credit Cards and Checking Accounts safe from scammers and fraudulent attacks? Especially not keeping our elderly population safe. They can't even keep public emails safe from a certain Secretary of State. They can't keep a single man in a Prison safe from 'suiciding' while waiting for the court case of the century. They can't even keep the phone companies accountable to the Do Not Call list for spam calls. They cannot keep telco and cable companies from price gauging consumers for internet while at the same time enforcing lock downs that keep people at home- with children- that require internet access and lots of bandwidth. Many states holding the state residents hostage from any sort of options of providers. If the crypto rush is the new gold rush and it is a burgeoning market, why should - or how could, the government save people from their personal decisions. Crypto itself is not fraud. We have laws against fraud if one specific instance is found to be fraudulent. Why should we make new laws to save people from their bad decisions? Honestly, those bad decisions started with the elected officials that aren't held accountable to the public as it is. So we're going to let incompetents govern incompetently for what exists and ask them to govern competently for NEW things? How peculiar.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  So we're going to let incompetents govern incompetently for what exists and ask them to govern competently for NEW things? How peculiar. Believing the government to be incompetent is a self-fulfilling prophecy: - Only the incompetent or apathetic will choose to work for government and take the hit to their personal reputation. - Underfunding leads to underperformance which leads to perceptions of incompetence which leads to underfunding. - True incompetence, corruption, etc. start getting ignored as just "that's how the government is," so nobody tries to fix anything. - Those who have a financial interest in reducing the capabilities of government will "starve the beast" and make it progressively more incompetent. There are many functions of government that, though they could always do better, make the world better than it would be in their absence: fire departments, paramedics, infrastructure management (in areas where this is actually done reasonably well), utilities, financial crimes enforcement, agricultural and pharmaceutical quality enforcement, etc. We're already pretty far down this road of destruction of competence, so I'm not sure how to turn things around, but that doesn't mean we have to keep driving forward into the land of feudalistic anarchocapitalism.
mdorazio 5y ago
> People think they can just get rich by investing in currency. It's insane. Here's the problem - replace [currency] with any of many other things and the statement is still valid. You need to explain why crypto specifically deserves more hate than, say, Forex or options trading.
- spicybright 5y ago
  I'm guessing you as an individual would have no problem trading coins though, right? Even if they firewall the country, all you need is any vpn to make transactions.
- haskellandchill 5y ago
  It's a false equivalency. Crypto is different than the other things, which are regulated. Crypto exchanges need regulation. That is all.
tmn 5y ago
Explain how it's a plague please
- haskellandchill 5y ago
  I could write an essay and it would not change a soul. Figure it out, or don't. Enjoy your life either way.
  - tmn 5y ago
    I mean this is a uncommon opinion. I'd appreciate a few sentences because I was curious. But whatever, I won't lose sleep. I don't know if you think it's because of the energy waste, or invoking speculative rampage, or something else.. It's the something else I'm more curious about.
    - haskellandchill 5y ago
      I see smart people watching charts like pornography addicts instead of engaging in productive business activities, that is all. I see money that could be invested in the community going into scams like Chainlink.
      - tmn 5y ago
        Fair point. I was addicted the chart watching for a few months the 2017 run. I would put this under the speculative rampage.
cwkoss 5y ago
A quick check of the price charts demonstrates that millions of people disagree that the value is zero. If you feel strongly about it, you should short Bitcoin. I wouldn't recommend doing so, but if that is your conviction you have the option to put your money where your mouth is.

mym1990 5y ago

Based on my light understanding of crypto related things, I think Bitcoin very obviously has a purpose and a mission while Dogecoin was literally created as a joke and happened to take off...that would be understanding of their “objectives” as referenced in the article.

kube-system 5y ago
I personally think dogecoin is dumb, but I also don't think originalism is very useful to judge most creations. Plenty of creations take on a life that is nothing like the originator intended.
- mym1990 5y ago
  Maybe, but it’s not like Bitcoin had a mission and it’s now completely different, it still pursues a more decentralized world view. In similar light, it’s not like Dogecoin is now any less of a joke than it was when it was created, it’s just speculated upon more.
lvs 5y ago
The developers who made the joke are no longer associated with any ongoing development. And just because something is unserious does not mean it lacks value or objectives.
lawn 5y ago
A thing doesn't derive it's value or purpose from the intent of their creator, but how it's used going forward. Bitcoin for example was created to be electronic cash, but today most people treat is as a "digital gold" and a store of value, but not as something to be used in regular day-to-day transactions. And Dogecoin was indeed created as a joke, but it doesn't stop it from being used to buy things (3% of all BitPay purchases[1]), and in contrast to Bitcoin the community wants to keep it affordable. So in a way, you can argue that Dogecoin follows Satoshi's vision more than even Bitcoin does. [1]: https://bitpay.com/stats/ https://bitpay.com/stats/
- 5y ago

wyager 5y ago

Cost is not driven by mining cost. Labor theory of value is tempting but wrong here and anywhere else. You have your causality backwards. Mining cost is driven by value.

imNotTheProb 5y ago

Dogecoin has no cap. It's like Fiat currency. Bitcoin is more similar to Gold in scarcity.

ziml77 5y ago

Does it have as much value? It is designed to constantly inflate while bitcoin is designed to have a hard limit on the number of coins mined.