6 ms·

Gearheads don't get it

48 points by mooders 18y ago

terpua 18y ago
The same is true for golf.
gaius 18y ago
I don't know, so this is a genuine question: How much language/tool advocacy does DHH do?
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  Plenty - I mean, the guy wrote his own tools, and he's not shy about promoting them. I wouldn't call him a zealot, but he's manifestly picky about tools. Not that there's any contradiction here. It is true that your skill transcends any particular tool, but it is also true that skilled people often become quite picky about tools. I doubt that Eddie Van Halen owns only one guitar. The mistake is not caring about the tools, or taking trouble to find - or build - the tool that suits you. The mistake is attributing too much power to the tool and not enough to the user.
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    There are two kinds of seekers of good instruments. One kind pushes him/herself so hard that they run up against the limitations of their instruments and so are driven to find better ones. Another kind doesn't push themselves so hard, but gravitates towards the advantages of better a better instrument even though they still have even more scope for improving their own playing through technique. I think this also extends to software tools.
    - gaius 18y ago
      Good tools also give you room to grow into them, so you can concentrate on learning without having to worry too much about housekeeping or maintenance tasks. As a personal example, I became a better photographer when I bought a good (but used) Nikon, because I know it's built to take some abuse (people photograph wars with these) so I happily take photos in wild places and never worry that it's going to get damaged.
stcredzero 18y ago
I knew a young aspiring (and penniless) artist in Cincinnati. She took gorgeous photos. Her method? She got to know lots of gorgeous young women, made friends with them and put them at ease, waited for just the right time of the day on a suitably sunny day, called up her friends and snapped them with a disposable camera. She had photos hanging in galleries and cafes taken with a disposable camera.
strlen 18y ago
I suspect, however, that there are hackers involved in (or doing) start-ups not for the sake of creating anything - but for the sake of playing with genuinely interesting technology (be it in infrastructure, multi-tiered architecture, cool programming languages that they may not get a chance to use otherwise).
DarkShikari 18y ago
This seems to go back to the saying "a bad programmer can write COBOL in any language"; no matter how good your tools, it doesn't prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot.
- gaius 18y ago
  Say what you like about COBOL but don't knock COBOL programmers. How much of your code will still be running in 40 years? COBOL programmers are the perfect example of what good people can do with "bad" tools.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  I have seen such horrors firsthand. A Smalltalk subsystem where all methods were class-side methods, only referred to local variables, and had variations of the same long list of arguments. All of these methods were copy and paste variants of each other and involved nested loops, multiple incrementing indexed array references, and conditional logic 4 or 5 levels deep. The coder who wrote these: a PhD in math who insisted she had a great understanding of Objects. What's more, she's outlasted everyone in the group and is now in charge of the entire application!
  - trevelyan 18y ago
    survival of the fittest. maybe we'll all be coding like that in 15 years.
    - stcredzero 18y ago
      In her case, it was an adeptness at gaming the corporate management system. After she wrote that code, she managed to put herself in a nebulous position between two groups where she was thought to be invaluable, yet all she did was to tell other people when they were doing something wrong, but never actually had to fix anything. You could often see her at the coffee shop reading a novel in the middle of the day.
yan 18y ago
I find that the quality that makes tools in general good is their ability to get out of your way and become an intuitive extension of yourself. Anything less than that, you end up fighting with and tricking it into doing what you want it to do. A good camera, guitar, text editor, IDE, sports car, etc won't make someone with little skill better, but it will let someone who is excellent at what they do express themselves without fighting it.
mynameishere 18y ago
Does not work with surgeons and ice cream scoops. Or several other things.
- YuriNiyazov 18y ago
  The article doesn't say that good tools don't help - the article says that you will not become a good "insert anything here" if all you have are great tools and no innate ability or vision. In other words - if I am not a good runner, then having expensive orthopedic sneakers while I am running will not do me much good. If I am a good runner, then having those sneakers will make me better.
  - mynameishere 18y ago
    you will not become a good "insert anything here" if all you have are great tools and no innate ability or vision. Yeah. I know. But that's pretty well-understood. I don't think anyone ever thought that. No one really thinks, "Good tools==success". And so we are again faced with the typical 37signals blog entry, the shtick of which is to state humdrum truisms to a galley of fawning fanboys, who litter the comment section with love unlimited. But, as usual, they somehow still manage to deviate from more strongly stated opinions, What do hackers want? Like all craftsmen, hackers like good tools. In fact, that's an understatement. Good hackers find it unbearable to use bad tools. They'll simply refuse to work on projects with the wrong infrastructure. True, yes? All craftsmen demand the best tools, and there's no harm in having them, or refining them, or arguing over their merits.
- astine 18y ago
  Really? The best scalpel in the world won't make you a good surgeon. Or, at least, it won't make me a good surgeon. I don't about you.
  - william42 18y ago
    I wouldn't want the best surgeon in the world using a clotheshanger and a steak knife, though.
josefresco 18y ago
Lack of proper tools can severely hamper your ability to excel in many fields. As a web designer, I rely heavily on my vector graphics software that can't be replaced easily by something else. The tools in this software allow me to create designs that would be impossible with other less sophisticated applications. The point of this article is only valid in a fantasy world where one doesn't look too hard at the details. You'd think as geeks we'd understand better the importance of killer-apps/killer-features and technical innovations for the world of the creative.
elai 18y ago
Tools do help a lot although. Sometimes using a debugger is the quickest way to fix a bug, and not being able to use one (because of a lack of a remote debugger) can make a 10 minute bug into a 30 minute bug.
hernan7 18y ago
He is right about playing guitar. Tone is in the fingers -- alas.
- j2d2 18y ago
  No he's not. You'll have to elaborate or see my other comment.
  - parenthesis 18y ago
    It is on unamplified guitar. The guitar itself (including the strings) is also a factor, but varying plucking position and method (pick, nail, flesh etc.) gives huge variations in tone. These things also affect tone on amplified guitar, though less so as more excessive processing (distortion etc.) is added.
j2d2 18y ago
I don't think the analogy makes sense. Tone, with a guitar, definitely comes from the gear you use. Tone is precisely where there is so much gear and why there are so many knobs over all of it. You may recognize the style of eddie van halen playing out of crap gear, but you will not recognize the tone as anything other than crap. Edit: If you downmod me, please explain why. I've played guitar for many years and know what I said is a fact.
- qwph 18y ago
  Maybe what he means by "tone" is what you mean by "style".
  - j2d2 18y ago
    Then, as I said, he's wrong. Tone and style have very clear meanings in the world of guitar and they are not the same.
    - qwph 18y ago
      I guess we'll have to conclude that the "world of guitar" meanings of the terms are substantially narrower than those used by laymen. http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/tone http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/tone http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/style http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/style
      - j2d2 18y ago
        Fair enough. In the interest of educating everyone: Tone is more like turning the bass and treble up or down on an equalizer. Contrast this with hearing an original version of a song and then someone else covering it and you'll have a good idea of how style is different from tone. Equipment is precisely how you change tone, though there are possibilities for tone changes with existing equipment.
        jacobbijani 18y ago
        I think you made your point already. The author may have used the wrong scientific term in the article. That does not, in the slightest bit, make it any less true. Whatever you want to call it, a persons personal ability has a very real impact on how they performa a specific task, independent of any equipment they use. The point is to find the thing you are passionate about and DO THAT. Don't get caught up in trying to figure out the specifics of it. If you are good at it, none of that matters.
bscofield 18y ago
I found this post interesting, given that I heard a similar rant in the speaker lounge at a conference a while back—a designer was complaining loudly about people who asked her what tools she used to produce her oft-admired products (obviously, I'm anonymizing here). "MY BRAIN," she said snarkily. My reaction (which I suppressed at the the time, since I was rehearsing my talk yet again) was that not everyone is out to get you when they ask about this. Not everyone expects to be able to do what you do just by picking up the same tools. Many people may just be asking out of interest, looking for alternatives to the applications they currently use, trying to improve processes. Personally, I'm happy to evangelize the tools I use. I think they improve my productivity, and in general the more people using something, the better the community around and support for it.
mrkurt 18y ago
How about: companies that summarily disqualify developer candidates who prefer to use Windows?
fallentimes 18y ago
"Startup folks that worry more about software and scaling issues then how to actually get customers and make money." Dead on.
jacobbijani 18y ago
Here is an example some people on here might be able to relate to. Have you ever tried coding on a computer that isn't your own (the library, a computer lab, a friends house, etc)? You know how difficult it is, not having your own development environment and keyboard? Wouldn't you still be able to produce some really high quality code if you needed/wanted to? Now imagine if someone who was unskilled in programming sat at your computer. Would they know what to do?

48 points by mooders 18y ago

terpua 18y ago

The same is true for golf.

gaius 18y ago

I don't know, so this is a genuine question: How much language/tool advocacy does DHH do?

mechanical_fish 18y ago
Plenty - I mean, the guy wrote his own tools, and he's not shy about promoting them. I wouldn't call him a zealot, but he's manifestly picky about tools. Not that there's any contradiction here. It is true that your skill transcends any particular tool, but it is also true that skilled people often become quite picky about tools. I doubt that Eddie Van Halen owns only one guitar. The mistake is not caring about the tools, or taking trouble to find - or build - the tool that suits you. The mistake is attributing too much power to the tool and not enough to the user.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  There are two kinds of seekers of good instruments. One kind pushes him/herself so hard that they run up against the limitations of their instruments and so are driven to find better ones. Another kind doesn't push themselves so hard, but gravitates towards the advantages of better a better instrument even though they still have even more scope for improving their own playing through technique. I think this also extends to software tools.
  - gaius 18y ago
    Good tools also give you room to grow into them, so you can concentrate on learning without having to worry too much about housekeeping or maintenance tasks. As a personal example, I became a better photographer when I bought a good (but used) Nikon, because I know it's built to take some abuse (people photograph wars with these) so I happily take photos in wild places and never worry that it's going to get damaged.

stcredzero 18y ago

I knew a young aspiring (and penniless) artist in Cincinnati. She took gorgeous photos. Her method? She got to know lots of gorgeous young women, made friends with them and put them at ease, waited for just the right time of the day on a suitably sunny day, called up her friends and snapped them with a disposable camera. She had photos hanging in galleries and cafes taken with a disposable camera.

strlen 18y ago

I suspect, however, that there are hackers involved in (or doing) start-ups not for the sake of creating anything - but for the sake of playing with genuinely interesting technology (be it in infrastructure, multi-tiered architecture, cool programming languages that they may not get a chance to use otherwise).

DarkShikari 18y ago

This seems to go back to the saying "a bad programmer can write COBOL in any language"; no matter how good your tools, it doesn't prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot.

gaius 18y ago
Say what you like about COBOL but don't knock COBOL programmers. How much of your code will still be running in 40 years? COBOL programmers are the perfect example of what good people can do with "bad" tools.
stcredzero 18y ago
I have seen such horrors firsthand. A Smalltalk subsystem where all methods were class-side methods, only referred to local variables, and had variations of the same long list of arguments. All of these methods were copy and paste variants of each other and involved nested loops, multiple incrementing indexed array references, and conditional logic 4 or 5 levels deep. The coder who wrote these: a PhD in math who insisted she had a great understanding of Objects. What's more, she's outlasted everyone in the group and is now in charge of the entire application!
- trevelyan 18y ago
  survival of the fittest. maybe we'll all be coding like that in 15 years.
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    In her case, it was an adeptness at gaming the corporate management system. After she wrote that code, she managed to put herself in a nebulous position between two groups where she was thought to be invaluable, yet all she did was to tell other people when they were doing something wrong, but never actually had to fix anything. You could often see her at the coffee shop reading a novel in the middle of the day.

yan 18y ago

I find that the quality that makes tools in general good is their ability to get out of your way and become an intuitive extension of yourself. Anything less than that, you end up fighting with and tricking it into doing what you want it to do. A good camera, guitar, text editor, IDE, sports car, etc won't make someone with little skill better, but it will let someone who is excellent at what they do express themselves without fighting it.

mynameishere 18y ago

Does not work with surgeons and ice cream scoops. Or several other things.

YuriNiyazov 18y ago
The article doesn't say that good tools don't help - the article says that you will not become a good "insert anything here" if all you have are great tools and no innate ability or vision. In other words - if I am not a good runner, then having expensive orthopedic sneakers while I am running will not do me much good. If I am a good runner, then having those sneakers will make me better.
- mynameishere 18y ago
  you will not become a good "insert anything here" if all you have are great tools and no innate ability or vision. Yeah. I know. But that's pretty well-understood. I don't think anyone ever thought that. No one really thinks, "Good tools==success". And so we are again faced with the typical 37signals blog entry, the shtick of which is to state humdrum truisms to a galley of fawning fanboys, who litter the comment section with love unlimited. But, as usual, they somehow still manage to deviate from more strongly stated opinions, What do hackers want? Like all craftsmen, hackers like good tools. In fact, that's an understatement. Good hackers find it unbearable to use bad tools. They'll simply refuse to work on projects with the wrong infrastructure. True, yes? All craftsmen demand the best tools, and there's no harm in having them, or refining them, or arguing over their merits.
astine 18y ago
Really? The best scalpel in the world won't make you a good surgeon. Or, at least, it won't make me a good surgeon. I don't about you.
- william42 18y ago
  I wouldn't want the best surgeon in the world using a clotheshanger and a steak knife, though.

josefresco 18y ago

Lack of proper tools can severely hamper your ability to excel in many fields. As a web designer, I rely heavily on my vector graphics software that can't be replaced easily by something else. The tools in this software allow me to create designs that would be impossible with other less sophisticated applications. The point of this article is only valid in a fantasy world where one doesn't look too hard at the details. You'd think as geeks we'd understand better the importance of killer-apps/killer-features and technical innovations for the world of the creative.

elai 18y ago

Tools do help a lot although. Sometimes using a debugger is the quickest way to fix a bug, and not being able to use one (because of a lack of a remote debugger) can make a 10 minute bug into a 30 minute bug.

hernan7 18y ago

He is right about playing guitar. Tone is in the fingers -- alas.

j2d2 18y ago
No he's not. You'll have to elaborate or see my other comment.
- parenthesis 18y ago
  It is on unamplified guitar. The guitar itself (including the strings) is also a factor, but varying plucking position and method (pick, nail, flesh etc.) gives huge variations in tone. These things also affect tone on amplified guitar, though less so as more excessive processing (distortion etc.) is added.

j2d2 18y ago

I don't think the analogy makes sense. Tone, with a guitar, definitely comes from the gear you use. Tone is precisely where there is so much gear and why there are so many knobs over all of it. You may recognize the style of eddie van halen playing out of crap gear, but you will not recognize the tone as anything other than crap. Edit: If you downmod me, please explain why. I've played guitar for many years and know what I said is a fact.

qwph 18y ago
Maybe what he means by "tone" is what you mean by "style".
- j2d2 18y ago
  Then, as I said, he's wrong. Tone and style have very clear meanings in the world of guitar and they are not the same.
  - qwph 18y ago
    I guess we'll have to conclude that the "world of guitar" meanings of the terms are substantially narrower than those used by laymen. http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/tone http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/tone http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/style http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/style
    - j2d2 18y ago
      Fair enough. In the interest of educating everyone: Tone is more like turning the bass and treble up or down on an equalizer. Contrast this with hearing an original version of a song and then someone else covering it and you'll have a good idea of how style is different from tone. Equipment is precisely how you change tone, though there are possibilities for tone changes with existing equipment.
      - jacobbijani 18y ago
        I think you made your point already. The author may have used the wrong scientific term in the article. That does not, in the slightest bit, make it any less true. Whatever you want to call it, a persons personal ability has a very real impact on how they performa a specific task, independent of any equipment they use. The point is to find the thing you are passionate about and DO THAT. Don't get caught up in trying to figure out the specifics of it. If you are good at it, none of that matters.

bscofield 18y ago

I found this post interesting, given that I heard a similar rant in the speaker lounge at a conference a while back—a designer was complaining loudly about people who asked her what tools she used to produce her oft-admired products (obviously, I'm anonymizing here). "MY BRAIN," she said snarkily. My reaction (which I suppressed at the the time, since I was rehearsing my talk yet again) was that not everyone is out to get you when they ask about this. Not everyone expects to be able to do what you do just by picking up the same tools. Many people may just be asking out of interest, looking for alternatives to the applications they currently use, trying to improve processes. Personally, I'm happy to evangelize the tools I use. I think they improve my productivity, and in general the more people using something, the better the community around and support for it.

mrkurt 18y ago

How about: companies that summarily disqualify developer candidates who prefer to use Windows?

fallentimes 18y ago

"Startup folks that worry more about software and scaling issues then how to actually get customers and make money." Dead on.

jacobbijani 18y ago

Here is an example some people on here might be able to relate to. Have you ever tried coding on a computer that isn't your own (the library, a computer lab, a friends house, etc)? You know how difficult it is, not having your own development environment and keyboard? Wouldn't you still be able to produce some really high quality code if you needed/wanted to? Now imagine if someone who was unskilled in programming sat at your computer. Would they know what to do?