7 ms·

Fleeing Venezuela

50 points by msh 5y ago

merciBien 5y ago
This is so painful to read, Venezuela sounds like a failed state, it can’t even provide running water to its people in Ordaz. The daily human toll must be ghastly. How does a country ever get back on a positive trajectory after such a catastrophe?
- christkv 5y ago
  Cambodia went through the same hell and worse and only started the path back after Vietnam invaded it and ousted the Khmer Rouge. It might take an outside intervention to end the charade of the Venezuelan government.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    Outside invasion - either by force or soft force (economic) are usually the quickest ways. Otherwise you need the rulers to decide to reform or the revolution to actually install a government that doesn’t just mimic the preceding.
- erikw 5y ago
  I don't have the numbers, but I suspect the brain-drain is near total, and irreversible for a few generations. The last time I did a round of interviews, about two years ago with half a dozen companies in Chile, at least half of the senior engineers, and many of the hiring managers, were Venezuelan. None of my Venezuelan friends plan on going back, although they do visit, and I think would like to go back if conditions were different- Venezuelan culture is quite a bit more "latin" than Chile, so there's a fair bit of culture shock for them. As it is, they are putting down roots, starting families, opening up businesses, etc, and I don't think they'll be leaving soon, if ever.
  - vhgyu75e6u 5y ago
    Not only that, it will most likely change the political map for the next 20 years in those countries, at least at the community level. If most of the refugees get voting rights (at least in Spain or Colombia where most can get the nationality through ancestry), they will NOT vote for any left leaning party that helps or validates the regime
  - opwieurposiu 5y ago
    The brain drain is real, at least in the case of the petroleum engineers. Most of them left years ago to work for Petrobras or Pemex. I have heard mexican engineers complain about venezuelans coming in and undercutting the labor market. This was 10+ years ago, after Chavez fired 80% of the engineers.
  - yostrovs 5y ago
    I visited Bogota on a visit hosted by the city's official business promotion council. The main lady running these tours was Venezuelan.
- tim333 5y ago
  They got a lot of advice from Cuba on staying in power. I fear Maduro may hang on in there till old age like Castro did.
oxymoran 5y ago
Remember when everyone in Venezuela was starving and all the American Leftists were trying to defend Maduro and calling one a fascist on Twitter for criticizing Maduro’s regime?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I've probably seen half a dozen "debates" in the last year in which American Leftists were arguing with actual Venezuelans about whether the situation in Venezuela was real or Western Propaganda (TM).
  - intheaa728q7e 5y ago
    And of course if you ask them for the source of their ridiculous claims they'll either link propaganda sites like Telesur or RT, or go off in rambling about how the CIA did something like that in the 60's forgetting to source anything
  - andy_ppp 5y ago
    I really hate grouping everyone like this. I consider myself left but you were arguing with a moron. I was under the impression in liberal democracy, even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things. The more general rule, to treat everyone on the content of their individual character, is an important one in my upbringing and I would like a return to these values. Currently everyone is being forced, on left or right, to have it assumed that they occupy absurd extremist positions. I do admit these people are on the rise, but I’m not sure inflating their importance (they are seeking attention in a lot of cases) is helping.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > you were arguing with a moron I'm inclined to agree, but increasingly these "morons" are more numerous and more likely to occupy positions of power and authority. > I was under the impression in liberal democracy even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things. Yeah, me too. > The more general rule I would like back because everyone is being forced on left or right have it assumed that they occupy absurd positions. I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence, could you rephrase/clarify?
throwawaysea 5y ago
For those interested in industrial collapse in Venezuela, check out this great recap of what happened with their oil industry: https://youtu.be/0mvjp0ZqK7Q https://youtu.be/0mvjp0ZqK7Q Also check out this video on hyperinflation in Venezuela: https://youtu.be/ah9i3R9pRpg https://youtu.be/ah9i3R9pRpg Finally, it's worth seeing how things look on the ground. For example, check out this bit on the subway: https://youtu.be/jN5LZR4ejkg?t=20m https://youtu.be/jN5LZR4ejkg?t=20m
mosdl 5y ago
Reminds a lot of some of the eastern European states prior to the USSR collapse, but seemingly much worse. Also the power outages mentioned - they should prove that crypto won't help...
- rolobio 5y ago
  I think that's a good takeaway. But he does mention that once he's in Columbia, he is able to convert some of his crypto into cash. So maybe storing more of his cash into crypto would have helped? But then again, he did need cash for bribes...
  - yardie 5y ago
    The amount of cash he needed to keep on hand didn't seem unreasonable. But keeping any less and he might have to walk the rest of the way. Crypto still has a long way to go to being the great, ubiquitous equalizer it was designed to be.
  - yawaworht1978 5y ago
    I know Colombia pretty well. My goodness, he better not convert Bitcoin to cash there. Colombia is by no means much safer than Venezuela, ever and in particular since about 2 months. Few people remember that not too long ago Colombians were seeking refuge in Venezuela. He should use an online exchange if he can provide KYC. Something like in person exchange in Colombia is playing Russian/Colombian roulette. Maybe he has family he can trust with, but yeah. In Colombia, wrong street and someone will rob you at gunpoint for a phone, even if there is not Bitcoin on it.
rolobio 5y ago
Very good read. I have a soft-spot for Venezuela and it's collapse. Its fascinating watching a country make the same mistakes as dozens of countries before them have. History repeats and repeats, even though we have trivial access to it today through the internet. I always find it odd when people speak of Venezuela never seem to talk about the failures of Socialism. They seem to blame the failures on violence or authoritarian regimes. But how are you supposed to "seize the means of production" without authoritarianism? The author of this article mentions Marxism: > The Venezuelan government calls itself Marxist, too, but also seems to spend more time dreaming up ways to make a buck than on anything like a revolution. I would love to hear more of their opinions on Marxism. But this article seemed more about a journey than why the journey was necessary.
- ajmadesc 5y ago
  Is this a joke? If you yell Socialism into a canyon in the united states it echos "But Venezuela!"
- msh 5y ago
  Socialism does not need to sieze the means of production, marxism does. Socialism also covers a big range different ideologies. For example social democrat parties are considered to be socialist parties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy The scandinavian countries are by global standards quite socialist, with social democratic and socialist parties often in power, most of those have no interest in seizing the means of production.
throwaway-jim 5y ago
Wow, I'm surprised that cryptocurrency actually helped him. I can see he cannot make a bank account since he is an illegal alien, but he could still hold and transfer value with the power of the blockchain. Smart move, since he pretty much got robbed of any valuable he had with him. One of the few positive crypto-related news I have heard lately!
- tim333 5y ago
  He wrote an earlier article (2019) in the NYT on crypto helping there https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/23/opinion/sunday/venezuela-bitcoin-inflation-cryptocurrencies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/23/opinion/sunday/venezuela-...
  - mgh2 5y ago
    Do you have a non paywall version of this?
    - tim333 5y ago
      https://archive.ph/UN3I8 https://archive.ph/UN3I8
- koheripbal 5y ago
  Cryptocurrencies are an innovation. With all the problems and areas that need improvement, there is undoubtedly some key technology progress here that we're never going back from. Personally, I think what we're seeing is akin to the first internal combustion engine. It was dirty, low power, fuel hungry, extremely noisy, inefficient, and vibrated so hard no one ever thought you'd be able to attach anything to it. ...and it also made zero people money. ...but eventually it revolutionized transportation.
hulitu 5y ago
> Around the world, there is now a contest between freedom and tyranny, between the rule of law and the arbitrary exercise of naked power. Yeah, right. And the glorious state named US is leading the contest. If political bulshit is not allowed on HN why is such a story with such comments not dead ?

50 points by msh 5y ago

This is so painful to read, Venezuela sounds like a failed state, it can’t even provide running water to its people in Ordaz. The daily human toll must be ghastly. How does a country ever get back on a positive trajectory after such a catastrophe?

christkv 5y ago
Cambodia went through the same hell and worse and only started the path back after Vietnam invaded it and ousted the Khmer Rouge. It might take an outside intervention to end the charade of the Venezuelan government.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Outside invasion - either by force or soft force (economic) are usually the quickest ways. Otherwise you need the rulers to decide to reform or the revolution to actually install a government that doesn’t just mimic the preceding.
erikw 5y ago
I don't have the numbers, but I suspect the brain-drain is near total, and irreversible for a few generations. The last time I did a round of interviews, about two years ago with half a dozen companies in Chile, at least half of the senior engineers, and many of the hiring managers, were Venezuelan. None of my Venezuelan friends plan on going back, although they do visit, and I think would like to go back if conditions were different- Venezuelan culture is quite a bit more "latin" than Chile, so there's a fair bit of culture shock for them. As it is, they are putting down roots, starting families, opening up businesses, etc, and I don't think they'll be leaving soon, if ever.
- vhgyu75e6u 5y ago
  Not only that, it will most likely change the political map for the next 20 years in those countries, at least at the community level. If most of the refugees get voting rights (at least in Spain or Colombia where most can get the nationality through ancestry), they will NOT vote for any left leaning party that helps or validates the regime
- opwieurposiu 5y ago
  The brain drain is real, at least in the case of the petroleum engineers. Most of them left years ago to work for Petrobras or Pemex. I have heard mexican engineers complain about venezuelans coming in and undercutting the labor market. This was 10+ years ago, after Chavez fired 80% of the engineers.
- yostrovs 5y ago
  I visited Bogota on a visit hosted by the city's official business promotion council. The main lady running these tours was Venezuelan.
tim333 5y ago
They got a lot of advice from Cuba on staying in power. I fear Maduro may hang on in there till old age like Castro did.

oxymoran 5y ago

Remember when everyone in Venezuela was starving and all the American Leftists were trying to defend Maduro and calling one a fascist on Twitter for criticizing Maduro’s regime?

throwaway894345 5y ago
I've probably seen half a dozen "debates" in the last year in which American Leftists were arguing with actual Venezuelans about whether the situation in Venezuela was real or Western Propaganda (TM).
- intheaa728q7e 5y ago
  And of course if you ask them for the source of their ridiculous claims they'll either link propaganda sites like Telesur or RT, or go off in rambling about how the CIA did something like that in the 60's forgetting to source anything
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  I really hate grouping everyone like this. I consider myself left but you were arguing with a moron. I was under the impression in liberal democracy, even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things. The more general rule, to treat everyone on the content of their individual character, is an important one in my upbringing and I would like a return to these values. Currently everyone is being forced, on left or right, to have it assumed that they occupy absurd extremist positions. I do admit these people are on the rise, but I’m not sure inflating their importance (they are seeking attention in a lot of cases) is helping.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > you were arguing with a moron I'm inclined to agree, but increasingly these "morons" are more numerous and more likely to occupy positions of power and authority. > I was under the impression in liberal democracy even up until maybe 2015 treating an individual as an example of all individuals from that group was considered reprehensible for obvious reasons, i.e. you will end up saying racist or sexist things. Yeah, me too. > The more general rule I would like back because everyone is being forced on left or right have it assumed that they occupy absurd positions. I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence, could you rephrase/clarify?

throwawaysea 5y ago

For those interested in industrial collapse in Venezuela, check out this great recap of what happened with their oil industry: https://youtu.be/0mvjp0ZqK7Q https://youtu.be/0mvjp0ZqK7Q Also check out this video on hyperinflation in Venezuela: https://youtu.be/ah9i3R9pRpg https://youtu.be/ah9i3R9pRpg Finally, it's worth seeing how things look on the ground. For example, check out this bit on the subway: https://youtu.be/jN5LZR4ejkg?t=20m https://youtu.be/jN5LZR4ejkg?t=20m

mosdl 5y ago

Reminds a lot of some of the eastern European states prior to the USSR collapse, but seemingly much worse. Also the power outages mentioned - they should prove that crypto won't help...

rolobio 5y ago
I think that's a good takeaway. But he does mention that once he's in Columbia, he is able to convert some of his crypto into cash. So maybe storing more of his cash into crypto would have helped? But then again, he did need cash for bribes...
- yardie 5y ago
  The amount of cash he needed to keep on hand didn't seem unreasonable. But keeping any less and he might have to walk the rest of the way. Crypto still has a long way to go to being the great, ubiquitous equalizer it was designed to be.
- yawaworht1978 5y ago
  I know Colombia pretty well. My goodness, he better not convert Bitcoin to cash there. Colombia is by no means much safer than Venezuela, ever and in particular since about 2 months. Few people remember that not too long ago Colombians were seeking refuge in Venezuela. He should use an online exchange if he can provide KYC. Something like in person exchange in Colombia is playing Russian/Colombian roulette. Maybe he has family he can trust with, but yeah. In Colombia, wrong street and someone will rob you at gunpoint for a phone, even if there is not Bitcoin on it.

rolobio 5y ago

Very good read. I have a soft-spot for Venezuela and it's collapse. Its fascinating watching a country make the same mistakes as dozens of countries before them have. History repeats and repeats, even though we have trivial access to it today through the internet. I always find it odd when people speak of Venezuela never seem to talk about the failures of Socialism. They seem to blame the failures on violence or authoritarian regimes. But how are you supposed to "seize the means of production" without authoritarianism? The author of this article mentions Marxism: > The Venezuelan government calls itself Marxist, too, but also seems to spend more time dreaming up ways to make a buck than on anything like a revolution. I would love to hear more of their opinions on Marxism. But this article seemed more about a journey than why the journey was necessary.

ajmadesc 5y ago
Is this a joke? If you yell Socialism into a canyon in the united states it echos "But Venezuela!"
msh 5y ago
Socialism does not need to sieze the means of production, marxism does. Socialism also covers a big range different ideologies. For example social democrat parties are considered to be socialist parties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy The scandinavian countries are by global standards quite socialist, with social democratic and socialist parties often in power, most of those have no interest in seizing the means of production.

throwaway-jim 5y ago

Wow, I'm surprised that cryptocurrency actually helped him. I can see he cannot make a bank account since he is an illegal alien, but he could still hold and transfer value with the power of the blockchain. Smart move, since he pretty much got robbed of any valuable he had with him. One of the few positive crypto-related news I have heard lately!

tim333 5y ago
He wrote an earlier article (2019) in the NYT on crypto helping there https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/23/opinion/sunday/venezuela-bitcoin-inflation-cryptocurrencies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/23/opinion/sunday/venezuela-...
- mgh2 5y ago
  Do you have a non paywall version of this?
  - tim333 5y ago
    https://archive.ph/UN3I8 https://archive.ph/UN3I8
koheripbal 5y ago
Cryptocurrencies are an innovation. With all the problems and areas that need improvement, there is undoubtedly some key technology progress here that we're never going back from. Personally, I think what we're seeing is akin to the first internal combustion engine. It was dirty, low power, fuel hungry, extremely noisy, inefficient, and vibrated so hard no one ever thought you'd be able to attach anything to it. ...and it also made zero people money. ...but eventually it revolutionized transportation.

hulitu 5y ago

> Around the world, there is now a contest between freedom and tyranny, between the rule of law and the arbitrary exercise of naked power. Yeah, right. And the glorious state named US is leading the contest. If political bulshit is not allowed on HN why is such a story with such comments not dead ?